Episode 14: Community engagement in global health
Zahra Fazal (2022 cohort) imagines a world where communities across Africa have an equal stake in setting the global health agenda. She joins hosts Willie Thompson, Taylor Goss, and guest host Takondwa Semphere to chat about her experience growing up in a scenic town in Tanzania, leaving home at 13 years old, addressing global health issues through a social epidemiology lens, and the danger of a single story in sub-Saharan Africa. Zahra also shares her hobbies, including creative writing, earring-making, and crocheting.
Resources
- Data is a neighbor, not a number (article by the Stanford Center for Innovation in Global Health)
- "Albinism Song" (YouTube video)
- How Imagine A World began (article on the KHS website)
Guest
Zahra Fazal (2022 cohort) from Morogoro, Tanzania, is pursuing a master’s degree in epidemiology and clinical research at Stanford School of Medicine. She graduated from the University of British Columbia (UBC), Canada with a bachelor’s degree in Global health and nutrition as a Karen McKellin International Leader of Tomorrow scholar. Zahra plans to apply her graduate degree towards researching health inequities amongst under-served populations and advocating for data-driven policy change within Sub-Saharan Africa.
Zahra founded a club for first-generation and low-income (FGLI) students, launched a podcast and hosted Canada’s first conference for FGLI students bringing together universities and education ministers across Canada. Inspired by her advocacy, UBC established a scholarship for FGLI students. Zahra was also a research assistant on a patient-partner project at Arthritis Research Canada investigating COVID-19 outcomes in patients with immunosuppression within Canada. Zahra has received the UBC International Community Achievement Award and is a 2022 Rhodes finalist.
Hosts
Imagine A World is hosted by Willie Thompson, left, and Taylor Goss, right. Photo by Micaela Go.
Taylor Goss (2021 cohort), from Lacassine, Louisiana, is pursuing an MA in music, science, and technology and an MPP in public policy at Stanford School of Humanities and Sciences. He graduated with college honors from Louisiana State University with bachelor's degrees in music and entrepreneurship. Taylor aspires to connect musicians and policymakers, using the arts to communicate societal needs and provoke policy change.
Willie Thompson (2022 cohort), from Griffin, Georgia, is pursuing a master's degree in business administration at Stanford Graduate School of Business. He graduated summa cum laude from Morehouse College with a bachelor’s degree in economics and a minor in Chinese Studies. He intends to create and contribute to organizations using the arts as a conduit for community building and intercultural education.
Imagine A World's theme music was composed and recorded by Taylor Goss. The podcast was originally conceived and led by Briana Mullen (2020 cohort), Taylor Goss, and Willie Thompson, along with Daniel Gajardo (2020 cohort) and Jordan Conger (2020 cohort).
Special thanks to Sanaa Alam, Rachel Desch, Sydney Hunt, Chan Leem, Kara Schechtman, Takondwa Priscilla Semphere, and Rahul Thapa.
Knight-Hennessy scholars represent a vast array of cultures, perspectives, and experiences. While we as an organization are committed to elevating their voices, the views expressed are those of the scholars, and not necessarily those of KHS.
Full transcript
Note: Transcripts are generated by machine and lightly edited by humans. They may contain errors.
Zahra Fazal:
And so I was like, "Well, if there's so much global health work being done and so many malaria nets, for example, being given for free, why is my family having the same recurrences of infectious diseases? And where is this going? How is this not solved if we have billions of dollars invested in it?" And I guess what stuck with me at that time growing up and seeing that was, well, they haven't really talked to individuals in the community who are at the axis of disadvantage. And if we were part of the decision-making, then maybe global health would look a bit different.
Hi everyone. I'm Zahra Fazal. I'm a member of the 2022 cohort and a second-year master's student in epidemiology. I imagine a world where communities across Africa have an equal stake in setting the global health agenda.
Taylor Goss:
Welcome to the Imagine a World Podcast from Knight-Hennessy Scholars. We are here to give you a glimpse into the Knight-Hennessy Scholar community of graduate students spanning all seven Stanford schools, including business, education, engineering, humanities, law, medicine, and sustainability. In each episode, we talk with scholars about the world they imagine and what they're doing to bring it to life.
Willie Thompson:
Today, you'll be hearing from Zahra Fazal, a second-year master's student in epidemiology at the Stanford School of Medicine. During our conversation, you'll hear about Zahra's experience defining home, stress baking, elevating African communities through social epidemiology, being a big sister, and so much more.
Hey, what's up, y'all? Welcome to another episode of the Imagine a World podcast. I am one of your co-hosts, Willie Thompson, at the business school, and soon to be at the Ed school member of the 2022 cohort. I'm joined by my amazing co-host as always, Taylor Goss.
Taylor Goss:
Hey, I'm the other co-host of the podcast. I'm doing an MA in music science technology and a master's of public policy, and I'm finished with both of them now, actually.
Willie Thompson:
I know.
Taylor Goss:
I think since-
Willie Thompson:
Taylor's a free elf. Taylor's a free elf.
Taylor Goss:
Yeah, I'm a free elf. Since the last episode, I have become a free student, working-
Willie Thompson:
Wait, seriously?
Taylor Goss:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm finished with both degrees, and I'm now just working on projects in the recording studio.
Willie Thompson:
Oh, that's crazy.
Taylor Goss:
Yeah.
Willie Thompson:
You should have actually said it like you did. Man, that's crazy.
Taylor Goss:
Stanford folks, ask your advisors about TGR quarter.
Willie Thompson:
I'll just check that out. And also, in addition to our guest, we've got a special member of the Imagine World podcast team. Actually, let's have you introduce yourself. Go for it.
Takondwa Semphere:
Hello everyone. My name is Takondwa Semphere, and I am a student at the Graduate School of Education. I'm getting my master's in learning design and technology, and I'm a member of the 2023 cohort. And I'm also from Malawi.
Taylor Goss:
Long-time maker of things happening on this podcast, but first time on air, I guess.
Takondwa Semphere:
Yeah, it's good to be here.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, it's good to have you on.
Takondwa Semphere:
Good to be here.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah. So, you heard that Imagine the World statement, and we've got the special guest Zahra here. And before we even get into the Imagine the World statement and your origin story, how are you doing today? It's a Tuesday. At the time of this recording, it's about a week after Ramadan ended.
Taylor Goss:
It's a beautiful day.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, a beautiful day. How are you feeling?
Zahra Fazal:
Much, much better, honestly. Ramadan was amazing. Stanford has a great community. But by the end, I was genuinely just marking down days to eat, and my roommate saw that. She was like, "You need coffee." And I was like, "Yep, I cannot wait for that." So, feeling good. Got my coffee in today, had a long morning baking session, trying to just bake away the stress and channel it into creative, something creative to let the stress out. So, feeling good.
Willie Thompson:
What were you baking?
Zahra Fazal:
I was making a chocolate babka.
Willie Thompson:
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah.
Willie Thompson:
And it didn't make its way to Denning today.
Taylor Goss:
I was about to say, conspicuous that it's not here.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah. So, I did have a tiffin right at my bedside in the morning after I finished baking. Before I was leaving, I was like, "Yeah, put that in your bag." And I didn't, but that's the story of my life.
Taylor Goss:
The thought was there, and I think-
Willie Thompson:
I appreciate that.
Taylor Goss:
... that's what we appreciate.
Zahra Fazal:
Thank you. It'll definitely make its way around, hopefully.
Takondwa Semphere:
Or we can make our way to your place.
Zahra Fazal:
Yes!
Takondwa Semphere:
Following you home.
Taylor Goss:
Yeah.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah.
Zahra Fazal:
Absolutely.
Willie Thompson:
Then we can pull up. I'm not opposed to that.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm down.
Takondwa Semphere:
Inviting ourselves to your house.
Zahra Fazal:
No, but truly, that's the African way. All the doors are open. Everyone's welcomed in.
Takondwa Semphere:
Yeah, you bring the Tupperware with the baked goods, and then we return it with something else.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah, exactly.
Takondwa Semphere:
You never return an empty container.
Zahra Fazal:
It's very confusing because the chain doesn't end.
Taylor Goss:
The lineage of Tupperware.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah.
Takondwa Semphere:
It never ends.
Zahra Fazal:
Truly. And if you get a Tupperware back with nothing in it, that's bad.
Takondwa Semphere:
It's rude.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah, exactly. It's rude.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah. Well, I now will make sure I return Tupperware to people with something in it.
Taylor Goss:
That's a level up. I mean, the United States Southernism that I learned growing up was always return something you borrow in a better condition than you found it.
Willie Thompson:
Which is empty and clean.
Taylor Goss:
Which is empty and clean.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah.
Taylor Goss:
But however, that's a level up. The African way is more substantial, clearly.
Takondwa Semphere:
So, you mentioned that you were stress-baking.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah.
Takondwa Semphere:
So, that means there was a lot of stress, then.
Willie Thompson:
Right.
Zahra Fazal:
It was, yeah, unfortunately, because I had my thesis defense a couple of weeks ago, well, a week ago now.
Taylor Goss:
Okay. Congratulations.
Zahra Fazal:
Thank you.
Willie Thompson:
Wait, they put your thesis defense at the end of Ramadan?
Zahra Fazal:
That was my choice. I thought it was going to be Eid, so I was like, "I'm going to pull up with my traditional fit and have everyone just get distracted by that and not criticize my research."
Taylor Goss:
There was a strategy there.
Zahra Fazal:
There was some strategy.
Willie Thompson:
I see.
Zahra Fazal:
But yeah, it ended up not ... the moon didn't sight, and so I was presenting fasting. But it went well, so that was exactly a week ago from today, and then I submitted the written version yesterday night.
Willie Thompson:
Nice. Oh, wow. Okay.
Takondwa Semphere:
Congratulations.
Willie Thompson:
So, are you also done like Taylor's done or ...
Zahra Fazal:
So, I wish.
Willie Thompson:
Okay.
Taylor Goss:
Not exactly the same. I'm just a lowly master's student.
Zahra Fazal:
No, no, no, but I relate to you because I'm not taking classes now because-
Willie Thompson:
What?
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, final quarter, no classes, but I have to publish three papers before...
Taylor Goss:
Right.
Willie Thompson:
Okay.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah. So, that will take its time. So, not fully free, but free enough to make babka, just on a regular 7:00 AM morning.
Willie Thompson:
That's crazy. Well, look, well, I can't wait to have some of that chocolate babka, please, hopefully soon. But before we pull out the world you imagine, but in terms of the world that you were born into and have experienced thus far, can you tell us where are you from and what was your journey here to Stanford?
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah, that's a good place to start, honestly, because a lot of that has informed what I'm studying now. Let's see. So, I was born in Morogoro, in Tanzania, so that's a small town. A lot of people who tend to leave Tanzania and pursue higher education abroad come from cities. So, my experiences might be slightly different from most Tanzanians who are living abroad. But yes, I grew up in a smaller town, beautiful place, pretty much cradled by mountains. If I had my phone, it's my phone wallpaper, so it's really gorgeous, very much like agricultural land. My family lived in Tanzania generations before me, so we're a third-, fourth-generation Tanzanian, and we've had family living in pretty much every part of East Africa. So, I've had family from the Congo, Kenya, Tanzania, Sudan, Zambia. And so my immediate family is from Tanzania, but we have connections pretty much all across East Africa.
So, growing up, it was a pretty small community in the town. I didn't live with extended family or anything, although they would always visit because we had a national park. So, it was always fun hosting family members from across East Africa when they would come by and stop on their way to the national park, and then they'd come back on their way and tell us all the animals they saw. So, it was always really cool. We were visited very temporarily by people, but all those connections taught me more about the world around me.
But going to school, I did the national curriculum. So, we have the national and international curriculum in Tanzania, and the national one has a lot of standardized exams every time. So, after my grade seven exam, you get placed onto the next class on government loans if you make a cut. So, that was my journey was always standardized exams and little cutoffs and then trying to get to the next stage on a scholarship. But I moved out at 13, actually. Yeah.
So, I left home, I left Morogoro, which, honestly, is the beginning of what shaped me because I didn't want to leave, honestly. I was very attached to the town, loved it, loved seeing nature. Going to my primary school, we'd climb a little mountain, and it would be beautiful. My primary school was right next to waterfalls that have now dried up because I visited this summer, and I really wanted to see everything that I grew up seeing. So things have changed quite a bit, but I didn't want to leave because it was so beautiful. But after grade seven, my parents sent me to the city and to get more computer training and spend my holiday doing something. And then I couldn't really go back because we have one bus that, at that time, and there was one bus that would go between the town and the city.
I mean, looking at the prices now, they weren't as expensive, but it was around $10.00. And at that time, my parents couldn't afford to bring me back, so I just stayed. I stayed in the city, stopped schooling after grade seven, and took almost a year gap trying to figure out how I would come back home and how I would access my governmental loan in now a new city because I couldn't go back to the town. And then, thankfully, that worked itself out after a year. I had quite a bit of luck in family members chipping in, in schools being convinced to take a shot at me and see if my grades would show in terms of the hard work I could put in. But yeah, it was very much interrupted school systems, and a lot of movement and not a lot of time with family or the places I would've wanted to stay in. But all of that shaped me in being able to understand all these determinants that affect wellness and human life that are out of your control.
Taylor Goss:
In your initial studies around this time, were there themes that kept popping up that you found yourself consistently interested in? Did you see a path start to form at that point?
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah. So, that's really interesting because growing up, I thought I was good at science, and that's it. I didn't know how to translate that into something like a career. Everyone in my family has mostly only completed grade nine. And so, after completing schooling, a lot of them got into businesses, like small businesses. So, for example, my great-grandfather, who was in Zanzibar, which is an island off the mainland of Tanzania, he was a watchmaker. So he set up his cardboard shop outside his house. And if people walked by, people who had, I guess, white collar jobs, are they called?
Willie Thompson:
Sure.
Taylor Goss:
Yep.
Zahra Fazal:
People who'd walk by and who'd have their watch broken, he would fix it. And he would also help shine up shoes, which was a big thing. You have to go to work and to school with your shoes fully shined up and nice and pretty. So, even though some of them did attend school until grade nine, no one used that as a way to create a career. So that wasn't really, honestly, something I was ever considering or thinking about. It was never on my radar until pretty much grade 11, so it took me a while to get to a point where I started thinking about a career and even thinking about further schooling because, after primary school, I thought that was it, and so did my family.
And then secondary, it was two years until another standardized exam, and then looking for scholarships to continue two more years. And then, I moved from the national curriculum on a scholarship to an international curriculum, so that was grade 11 and 12. And that helped me expand into, now I have a school counselor, and they're making me think about what comes next. And I remember when they asked me, I was like, "Well, I've always worked while schooling, so I'm going to work." And this was since grade seven when I lived in the city on my own. I had to make ends meet, so I used to work in the city while going to school. And it was a lot of odd small jobs. I was really good at typing at that time. I could type without looking down, which was a skill sought after at that time.
Taylor Goss:
I cannot do that.
Willie Thompson:
Is that still true now?
Zahra Fazal:
It is, yeah.
Taylor Goss:
I need to look down at least every few seconds.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, every couple of minutes. Yeah, yeah.
Zahra Fazal:
So, I did that quite a bit, attend conferences and be like the note-taker for things, and I'd make money like that and would always try and have some of that money sent back to my town to Morogoro, to my family. And so that was the goal. My goal was to get through high school and say that I have a high school degree and be able to get a slightly higher-paid job than I had in high school. But the counselor helped me think through, "Well, if I could make it to high school, then potentially, I could also work and make it in undergrad," which I ended up doing in Canada, but always have worked. This is actually my first year in my life where I'm not having a job while studying, which feels so wild.
Willie Thompson:
This year, you mean, this past year?
Zahra Fazal:
This year, yeah.
Willie Thompson:
Oh, wow.
Zahra Fazal:
This is my first year ever. So, since the age of 12, I've always had a job while studying or something, and I didn't know what to do with my time.
Willie Thompson:
How'd you feel? I was going to ask about that. How'd you feel when you realized this abundance of time you had at your disposal by not working and being in school?
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah, I think some of it is very anxiety-inducing. I thought I would be happier and much more ... I guess spending that time investing in myself. I don't really know what to do with that time, and it's scary. It makes me look into my budget a lot. And every time I see a job posting, I'm like, "Oh, apply." But then I also have to take a moment and realize there's so much I need to catch up on in terms of real-world skills. I don't know how to drive yet. I don't know how to ride a bike. I don't know how to swim. And it's always felt like I've been trying to get through the next little standardized test and the next scholarship.
So, there's lots of life skills that I felt I missed out on because I didn't have time to think about it, and now I do. And Stanford has amazing resources, honestly. So, I've been enjoying trying to learn new things that Stanford offers and get into spaces that felt like, "Oh, that could never be my space," like rock climbing. That was something that ... kind of wild. I was like, "That is not a type of thing anyone does from my background." And now, I'm starting to learn that and have taken classes at Stanford, so it's been fun.
Willie Thompson:
Very cool.
Taylor Goss:
I think we've run into each other a couple of times at the climbing gym.
Zahra Fazal:
We have.
Taylor Goss:
Yes.
Zahra Fazal:
That's true.
Willie Thompson:
You mean the one in Far-illaga?
Taylor Goss:
Far-illaga, that's right.
Willie Thompson:
Oh, wow.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taylor Goss:
To be clear, the Arrillaga Gym climbing area, which is the furthest, therefore Far-illaga.
Willie Thompson:
Well, the furthest from-
Taylor Goss:
Not Stanford folks might not know that.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, the furthest from ... yeah. Okay. Yeah. For folks who are listening, there are two gyms at Stanford. One is called Near-illaga, one's called Far-illaga. I don't know what the center that dictates which is near and far is, but Far-illaga is the one that has a indoor rock climbing gym, which is pretty crazy.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah. No, it is. And it's funny because I live near it, so for me, it's Near-illaga.
Willie Thompson:
Right, right. Exactly. Yeah. I'm at the business school, and we called yours Far-illaga.
Taylor Goss:
Yeah, yeah. Perspective is crazy. With this period of your life that we've been talking about, it seems like the goal is getting from point A to point B, figuring out how to sustain yourself over time. But you're also a very creative person who's always had some level of art in your life and making art, and I think of art as a place of reflection. So, has art served as a place of reflection for you? How has being a creative person and also having to sustain yourself consistently over time, how have those two things mingled in your life?
Zahra Fazal:
I think, and Takondwa, you might agree with this. I think that's just ingrained in our culture. Growing up in sub-Saharan Africa, a lot of the art that we see around us, the creativity we see around us, it's how we've passed onto our culture. So, oral tradition is big, music. A lot of it has been literature. For example, Swahili literature, in particular, given that it's my second language, was instrumental. It was one I learned before English, and Swahili literature is through which I read and learned about the books that you learn in English, for example, Shakespeare. I only learned about Shakespeare in Swahili.
Willie Thompson:
In Swahili? Yeah, that's cool.
Zahra Fazal:
So, when people say those lines in Shakespeare, I'm like, I don't know what that is.
Willie Thompson:
Right, right, right.
Zahra Fazal:
So, it was ingrained from an early age. And a good example of that was in primary school. So, I went to the national curriculum in primary, and there, apart from your classes, you also learned how to garden. So we'd have times and slots allocated to us where we'd be with the slasher, grass slasher. And you'd be out slashing grass. And then, similarly, we'd have homework, and part of our homework was creating raffia grass, like stitches to create little mats that you can sit on. So, I did that from a young age, learned crocheting. I lived on indigenous land in Morogoro, and the indigenous community would crochet quite a bit, and so I learned that just growing up a little bit and then tried to continue that afterwards, once I settled down a little bit in finding out what my pathway was in undergrad. I came back to those little core teachings because I realized that I was missing a whole part of home because I couldn't go back as often.
It took me four years to be able to go home to Tanzania itself after leaving the country. And it took me around 12 to 16 years to come back to my hometown. And a lot of that was because I have obligations not just to myself, but to my family and to my younger sibling who, Willie, I know I've talked to you quite a bit about-
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Zahra Fazal:
The creativity part, the arts and culture, was my way of saying, "Well, I'm not home, but I'm trying to create that sense of home within me and to keep me on a path that feels intentional, that reminds me of the neighborhood and community that raised me." Because when I couldn't go to school for that one year in primary, I had friends who were going to school, and so I would watch them come home in the uniforms, and I would be a little depressed, to be honest. And they picked up on that. And before I even asked, they would give me notes from school. So, I caught up and didn't really need to repeat grades because of that, because people would just give me notes. And when I needed past papers, which we used to study for exams for, people would use their own money and photocopy that for me.
So, pretty much a neighborhood that I moved into took care of me and adopted me as their own, made sure that I was successful, made sure I was safe because I was 13 and a female living alone in a place that I didn't know. I didn't have my parent dropped me off and teach me the streets or anything. So, everyone took me in as their child and made sure that ... even now, when I go back, they remember me, and they have all these memories of making sure that, in Ramadan when I came home and I hadn't had time to make food, that they had their doors open and brought me in for iftars. So, it's making sure that that story is told to the creativity and arts and music that I try to engage in now.
Taylor Goss:
Yeah.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah.
Taylor Goss:
That's beautiful. It's the sustenance and the art all coming as functions of community.
Zahra Fazal:
Yes, absolutely.
Takondwa Semphere:
And I really loved what you said about the place that art has in a lot of Southern African societies. I'm even thinking about theater and the ways that it is something that people do as part of ... if someone's getting married, if you observe that, it's theatrical, the way the uncles will speak to each other. There's almost a script that's been passed down orally. I'm also just curious about your migration because you started off with family coming to visit you from all corners of the region, and then to you moving to the city, and then moving to Canada, and now you're in the big ... can you just tell us what that experience has been like? What are the differences and similarities that you've observed, and how do you think it's informed who you are?
Zahra Fazal:
That's a big question. Let's see. I guess I enjoyed being the person who received people. When we'd have people visiting Morogoro and coming in and spending time with us, I enjoyed that part a lot. And because of that, I thought, "Well, there's so much to the world that I want to see. And every person I've met says a different story from their hometowns and different life experiences." And I was curious. I wanted to see that. And so I thought when I would move to Canada and then to the US, I thought I would enjoy that because I would be seeking that out actively. And although I have, I think I've also come to realize that the grass is greener on the other side. Once you leave, you want to come back home. But then home doesn't really wait for you. It changes.
And that was hard because when I left, apart from politics changing and everything, I had a sibling I left who was five, who was born into my arms. And my mom hadn't raised her until she was five, until I left. So, for her, her whole world was me. And I thought, "Well, yes, but I also need to try and find a better way to sustain myself, my family in the future." But I mean, she changed, and she grew up, and now we have Zoom calls, but it's not the same. And then going home this summer was also not the same. Like my town, like I mentioned, the waterfall behind my primary school dried up. A lot of the animals we used to see, a lot of them are ... for example, rhinos are pretty much almost extinct. So, a lot of the nature changed. A lot of people changed. The politics have changed. And I think that's also something I try to reflect on a lot as I work in global health. The idea that the more we train and live in the global north, the more the global south is shifting. And then what is our place to be able to say that we can come back and potentially be part of that system if our lived experiences keep changing as we grow as well?
Takondwa Semphere:
Yeah. And I think it's also true that we are changing. Right? So, we are encountering so many things that are shifting our perspective of ourselves in a context of the world but also of the place that we come from. I deeply resonate with what you're saying because I left home when I was 16, and I've had a similarly jarring experience of returning to a place and, in your mind, lodging it in a specific time and moment in your own life that that's your reference point. And then you come back, and it's not the way that you imagined it. There's a way that we romanticize home and the texture of it. We lose it over time.
So, I wonder, given the work that you do, how you stay connected to home while also taking stock of what you don't know and what has changed in between. What kinds of practices do you have for remaining engaged in a way that's meaningful and also humble? Because I think coming to the global north from contexts like ours often comes with ...a lot of people perceive it as, oh, you've gone somewhere better. So, how do you balance this idea of honoring where you come from and also honoring the fact that there are experts on the ground who have never left and who are living the things that you are studying and thinking about daily? How do you sustain that connection? That's a long one, but pick what feels resonant for you.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah. No, absolutely. I think the advantage, maybe slight advantage, I have is I actually hated global health when I was living in Tanzania because the global health I saw, and to be very blunt with it, was very savior-based, was very white-centric, and seemed to me that it was a way to make money. And although I was trying to find stability in my life financially, especially for my family, I felt like it was at the cost of communities like my own, like my family, because we never had health insurance. I was never vaccinated as a child for anything except tuberculosis, which is what you get when you're born. And so I was like, "Well, if there's so much global health work being done and so many malaria nets, for example, being given for free, why is my family having the same recurrences of infectious diseases, and where is this going? How is this not solved if we have billions of dollars invested in it?"
And I guess what stuck with me at that time growing up and seeing that was, well, they haven't really talked to individuals in the community who are at the axis of disadvantage. And if we were part of the decision-making, then maybe global health would look a bit different. And so that helps me stay grounded because I didn't come from a place of falling in love with my field and thinking about it from a, oh, I really want to be part of it. I came from a fact of I really don't like what's happening, and I would hope that I can join this field to be able to critique it as well in a very healthy way. And so it helps to stay grounded because of that perspective, and also because my family still lives in a considerably lower income community. I still support them financially.
And I have a younger sister who's growing up and telling me experiences that she's seeing that I saw, and that keeps me grounded because, yes, I've lived it, but now I feel far away from it, but she's currently seeing it. So, for example, when she was born, we didn't have a residential address. So, when she was born, my parents had just moved to the city to come in and live with me, but I was living at different people's houses. And so we were living pretty much what you'd call a hidden homeless community where you couch surf. And so she was born while we were couch surfing at people's homes in a one-bedroom, and she would be in my lap while I was studying for exams, and I would be taking her to vaccine clinics. So, I started interacting with the healthcare system, started noticing, well, if you have mobile vaccine clinics, they go door to door, but what if someone isn't living in a house? What if they're not tied to a residential address? Then they might be missed in census. They might be missed in mobile clinics.
And similarly, there were lots of other things I noticed in her upbringing that I was very close to that I realized, well, there's a lot of determinants of health that are missed out. And that tends to happen if you don't have people from the communities informing the policy or informing the kind of programs that are being created to serve them. So, my work in global health, whenever I need a reality check, I have my little sister on the phone. And she's 11 now, and so she's very cute but very sassy. And so every time we talk, she will always fact-check me. When I call home, and I'm like, "Well, ma, we have a malaria net. You should be using it." My little sister will say, "Well, yes, but we also don't have electricity. And so if we turn on candles and a candle makes a net catch on fire, the whole house burns down. And we don't live in our house. We live in someone else's house." And so I'd be like, "Right, okay. There's more to this than a net." So, things like that keep me pretty grounded.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, 11 is definitely the age of sass, for sure.
Zahra Fazal:
Ooh, yes.
Willie Thompson:
But she's right at the peak of sass, and then it's just going to be adolescent angst probably for two or three years at least. I don't want to impose my own experience, but I feel like the average teenager experience is pretty similar.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah, I'm not looking forward to that part.
Willie Thompson:
So, something you were actually talking about in that last story is, I think, an embodiment of your Imagine the World statement. And it's interesting when people talk about the continent, I think they can sometimes speak of it, I think more times than not, speak of it in blanket terms. And I think you've articulated feels to me like a stitching of sorts of places instead of just covering up of the nuance, the existing communities. And so I wonder for you, where does ... you mentioned you want communities across Africa to have an equal stake in the global health agenda, and you've already articulated your experience seeing that agenda play out and the issues you've had with it. Where do you think the communities in Africa are right now in that stake, and what do you think it will take to have that equal stake in the agenda? Because we can talk about your work with albinism and Tanzania because I feel like that's a really good example of you living in that. What are your thoughts on the current state of the agenda and the way that African communities are capable of contributing to it, and what does it take for that state to be proportionally represented?
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah. No, that's a really important question, honestly. And I guess I'll preface by saying two things. One, when we talk about the continent, I guess it's very different when we talk about Eastern Africa to Western, sub-Saharan, and North. So, I do want to say, when I put down that statement, I was thinking more so communities all across Africa and specifically using my experiences growing up in East Africa, but speaking in general to the lack of partnership that's sustainable even beyond Eastern Africa. So, although my lived experiences informed that statement, I do see it play out quite similarly in other parts as well, but also acknowledging that they are very different parts of Africa. They need different things when it comes to global health. For some areas, the priority might not be the same as what I think it is for Eastern Africa, for example.
But also, when I was writing the statement, I didn't leave it as just Africa needs to be part of that conversation because I think it is. I think Africa and African leaders are. But who are those leaders, and do they currently embody the experience of the common person? There's a bit of, sometimes, a distance there. And so we have to really think, especially in global health, where health is supposed to be a right. It's not supposed to be something we quantify as how many years of life of productivity someone loses if they get a disease. That irks me, typically, because I think it's a matter of justice. It's a matter of everyone deserves to have a healthy life where they lead with wellness, and they're able to achieve whatever they want to.
And when we think about that, the priorities may be different for leaders versus communities. And that's why I wanted to call out specific communities because I do think when we think about communities, one that comes to mind immediately is indigenous groups all across Africa haven't had as much recognition, haven't had as much data in public health. And so when we think about pockets of communities, that's when we really think about, okay, is there a mismatch then to what is being currently represented on the global scale from Africa versus what communities really need? So, I think there, there's also a gap. And then, in general, there's also a need to elevate the voices from the continent, from leaders, from public health work, and ensure that when we think about the global health agenda, it's set by priorities that not only African leaders but also communities think they would want to see be done.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah. And can you share more about ... and actually, I'm going to go back real quickly to something you said earlier about the social determinants of health. I know Courtney Burton would be smiling ear to ear as she normally does about the mention of more social determinants of health because she talked a lot about that on her episode of the pod. I would want to see how was your work in epidemiology at Stanford and embodiment of the kind of things you'd like to see? I feel you teasing some of that stuff out, and I'd love to have a little bit more of an explicit conversation about that.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah. No, absolutely. So, after coming to Stanford, I always knew I would train in infectious disease EPI because that is the priority for many African countries. But after coming to Stanford, I've really incorporated social EPI, and that's where I would be headed after this, focusing more so on social epidemiology and creating that literature on the continent. A lot of that literature is coming up quite a bit in America. There are tools, for example, for the first time, through social epidemiology. There were tools that mapped racism and systemic racism as a measure for differential health outcomes. And that link wasn't one that was that explicit, and it was made explicit through literature in social epidemiology that showed the embodiments and ways to measure that.
How do you collect that data in surveys, or through policies, or through other things? And it would be very interesting to see parts of that incorporated within sub-Saharan Africa and to be able to say, "Okay, even within many countries in Africa that face very similar priorities when it comes to healthcare, there are some differentials." Communities are impacted differently when there's an outbreak. And what communities then need more incorporation of social EPI to support their well-being beyond a vaccine or beyond a pill that cures a disease once but has it reoccurring?
Willie Thompson:
You spent a long time developing a research project in Tanzania. I feel like when I was reading about your work in that project and how long it took and the fact that it was talking about something that I have little knowledge of in terms of albinism, what was that work like? Because you stewarded it from beginning to end, and I feel like the insights that came from it were remarkable, even the fact that there were awards and prizes given to it. So, maybe that's my last little question on just your work and where you're going with social EPI.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah. And actually, that's a very good example of using social EPI in the real world in Sub-Saharan Africa because people with albinism are one of the most stigmatized groups across Africa. And there's been a lot of historic stigmatization. You'll hear, if you search up people with albinism, the first articles will probably come up are around Tanzania because we host the highest number of people with albinism. But also because, in 2007, around that time, we had a massacre of people with albinism in the country. And what tends to come up in a lot of these articles is the idea of myths. And although that's part of the conversation, I think the bigger part is why do myths happen. And a lot of times, it happens because there's uncertainty, either because it coincides with infectious disease outbreaks, like in the HIV epidemic, and now again in COVID-19, where we did see it happen, but also because food prices in the global market fluctuate to a point where communities are thrown under food insecurity that they've never experienced before. And that is, again, a time that myths emerge.
So, it's not really the solution, in my opinion, isn't like provide more education around albinism, which is a genetic condition. Rather, well, there are systemic issues that are driving a persecution of a community. Well, how do we deal with the systemic issue? And then how do we ensure that the community who has already experienced decades of marginalization and persecution still can access dignified healthcare, especially because health workers have been part of the harm that has been done to the community? And so, while doing that work in Tanzania, it took me like a year and a half to be able to run everything from scratch. And it was very cool because this was the first time I was principal investigator and leading my own work, but it was exhausting. And the reason it was exhausting was, well, there's just not enough data when you look at social EPI in sub-Saharan Africa. And that part is really disappointing because if we don't prioritize that, we are not really giving the richness to communities that deserve it. Right?
There's more than a single story here. It's more than just myths. It's more than just a vaccine. It's about the decades of stigma and how that is systemic. And why is it systemic, and what are the global forces interacting to create that happening in Tanzania or in sub-Saharan Africa? But the research overall was also an opportunity for me to go back and mentor students who had similar life experiences and journeys as me. So, all the students we included through a national call were students who did the national curriculum, so the curriculum I studied where there isn't much opportunities to engage in research or STEM. For example, when I was going through school, as I increased in grade, the amount of females in the class decreased in STEM. So, we tried to have an emphasis on having female students and having students from lower-income backgrounds.
And they were able to engage in collecting the data, trying out research, but also able to engage in a important conversation in their communities because albinism is so prevalent that you will likely interact with someone who has albinism in a classroom or in the market. And it really depends on how you interact with them because if you change, for example, the type of myths that are passed down, if you stop that at you, and you don't pass that on to the next generation, that already is creating a different outlook and potentially a higher life expectancy for a person with albinism living in the country. So, it was also cool to engage young students to be able to say, "Okay. Well, they're part of this research. Their interaction with people with albinism is changing, and so potentially might their families." Because, at the end, every student I believe who has grown up in sub-Saharan Africa, we really believe in the village raising us, so we take everything home. And I think that's the part that's impactful.
Willie Thompson:
Awesome. Yeah, I would definitely encourage folks listening to check out the perceptions of people with albinism towards vaccinations in Tanzania. It's on the Stanford Global Health website. We'll probably put in the show notes too. But I think it's a really cool example of you being moved and motivated by even ... I think I saw somewhere it was like 90% of people with albinism live to 40 or something like that.
Zahra Fazal:
Yes.
Willie Thompson:
And it's a very stark outcome. And being able to play some of the, play some important work and being able to mend some of those bridges is really important.
Taylor Goss:
As we're talking about your career and your research, as we touched on a little bit ago in the episode, another big part of your life is your creativity. I know that Takondwa, in particular, is really excited to talk about some of the things you've written, some things that may or may not be available online that we might include in the show notes.
Takondwa Semphere:
Because I'm an internet detective and I find everything.
Zahra Fazal:
I can see.
Taylor Goss:
It's an FBI. It's an FBI. That's right.
Takondwa Semphere:
Yeah. When you were talking about myths, actually just a quick comment. I think it's really interesting what language does to how we perceive people's behavior because I think that particularly African context, beliefs that people hold are often typecast with this archaic sounding language like myths, legends, that sort of thing, where I observe similar kinds of behaviors that have happened in the West. For example, with COVID-19, the kinds of fake news, and misinformation, and that sort of thing, and how it proliferated in ways that are parallel almost to the kinds of discourse people have about people with albinism and various other conditions. And it's interesting what's labeled as a myth just because it happens on the African continent versus elsewhere.
Zahra Fazal:
Yes, absolutely.
Takondwa Semphere:
It makes me think of the idea of it's nepotism when it happens in a certain demographic, but it's networking if it happens in another, and how identity is tied in that. So, that was just, you've offered such an interesting perspective there.
Zahra Fazal:
And honestly, that comes up so much in global health because, even during the Ebola outbreak, which we probably lived through, I would walk down my house and look at the newsstand with newspapers and the way Africans were portrayed during the Ebola outbreak - that is completely factually inaccurate. And that is one of the issues I've had with being in the field I'm in is being African, and growing up on the continent makes you realize that diseases just seem to be tagged, and looked at, and story-lined differently, and so do communities. And that is, hopefully, why we need people from the continent being part of these conversations to call it out, honestly. Because even, for example, in one of my classes on history of epidemiology, I had a presentation on the history of African epidemiologists and how they have prevented the world from a lot of outbreaks by controlling them very fast, identifying different viruses, and that wasn't ever taught in the syllabus. There was no acknowledgment. One of the earliest fathers of epidemiology is credited to someone who had historically learned from indigenous communities in Western Africa too, and that isn't the story that is being portrayed. So, there is a lot of taglining, like you said, and language does matter. Absolutely.
Takondwa Semphere:
Yeah. And it's a pathologizing of the people themselves rather than working through the pathogens that are in society. And disease is so human. Human beings have diseases among them and have all kinds of health issues. That's what it means to be alive in a human body. And yet, when it occurs in a certain geographical location, then the people are reduced to that thing. So, I think the work you're doing is so important. And I also think sometimes I feel nervous about discussing topics like these because there's always that little person in the back of my mind that's like, "Oh, I don't want to reinforce anything for the West." But I think I've also had to tune that out sometimes and be comfortable with showing up in the full complexity of what it means to be human because we can't deny these experiences in the pursuit of dignity. I think part of dignity is being able to talk about health issues on the African continent without feeling like it's going to become just about that. Like your entire identity is going to become about that.
I think you spoke so beautifully and with such balanced perspective of the things that called you to this work but also the kinds of questions that you still have, and I just can't wait to see what you accomplish. So, as we transition on into just your creativity, you're wearing probably the best earrings I've seen in a minute that you made on your own. You were telling the story before we settled down. So, we are going to talk about this blog.
Zahra Fazal:
Ay, ay, ay, okay.
Takondwa Semphere:
Sadly, some of the links are broken, so it's just your luck. I could have pulled out Derek's quotes from your story.
Zahra Fazal:
I'm grateful.
Takondwa Semphere:
But how old were you when you were writing those stories? Because, for context, you were publishing stories on Wattpad-
Zahra Fazal:
Why are we going there?
Takondwa Semphere:
... to thousands of fans. And as a veteran of Wattpad myself, I know the kind of dedication and consistency that it requires to write novels that thousands of fans are engrossed enough in to read. And I think any thoughtful person with a creative bone in their body looks back at their work and cringes. I think that's a normal thing.
Zahra Fazal:
I'm cringing so hard right now. No one can see me, but-
Takondwa Semphere:
It's because you've grown and evolved, and the person who created that work has evolved into another person. But can you just say a little bit about that? What made you just want to sit down and write? Maybe the feeling itself rather than the work which might make you spontaneously combust if we talk about that.
Zahra Fazal:
Exactly. Thank you. That is literally you're throwing me a little life jacket here, and I'm going to grab it, given that I don't know how to swim. So, I think I was probably around 16, 17 at that time. So, it was honestly when Wattpad was pretty famous, and every person was on it and enjoying life reading. But the reason I probably gravitated towards it was I didn't ever have a TV growing up, so my outlet was books. It was always books from the library, where there was a limit of borrowing two. And my name was always under too many books borrowed at every point. We had a national library in Dar es Salaam that had my name everywhere. We had a school library. And then, I also had a friend who went to a different school who I made borrow books for me-
Takondwa Semphere:
Under their name.
Zahra Fazal:
Under their name.
Takondwa Semphere:
Genius.
Zahra Fazal:
So, everywhere pretty much. And it's really funny because my younger sister is also an avid reader, and I just sent her a book. She reads a lot of fantasy, and so I had a friend going back home who completed their degree at Stanford, and I was able to send her a book because she isn't able to access a lot of the latest copies of book series that she reads. And so she's always waiting for months, and now it's like, "Yes, I can finally just send stuff home." But because of that, when I would hit my limit, I would go on Wattpad. And I started as a reader, and then I was like, "You know, we grew up reading Swahili literature." I loved Swahili poetry. I used to write Swahili poetry. And at least for me, it was social resistance through literature. I learned queer theory through Swahili poetry, which was very much subtle, and there's a lot of persecution around it. So, literature was always written as a way to resist the narrative that is in society that potentially could be oppressive to communities. And so I started writing, thinking, "Well, I'm grown up in a Swahili community. This is part of my blood. I have to." So, I took a shot at it. I wrote it from the perspective of being a Muslim woman and growing up and stuff. I mean, I cringe at my work 'til today.
Takondwa Semphere:
That's okay.
Zahra Fazal:
We won't go there into the content, but I will say it was a good, fun exercise being able to write because I realized it's really powerful to document some of the experiences and being able to put out the word that there is so much shared common ground across different cultures, across different religions. And you can find that if you write about them. But if you don't write about them, it's really hard to seek that out. It was a form of olive branch saying, "These are my experiences. Does anyone have the same? Or what can we bond over?" That was probably at 16 what I was thinking about and nothing more.
Taylor Goss:
And clearly, people responded.
Takondwa Semphere:
Yes, thousands of them. And I think you make such an excellent point around the power of stories and of literature. And Tanzania is actually just known for being ... even for Swahili. I'm not a Swahili speaker, but even I know that Tanzanian Swahili is the most pure, poetic, and beautiful one.
Zahra Fazal:
Hell yeah.
Willie Thompson:
Hakuna Matata.
Takondwa Semphere:
I feel like that's all the Swahili most of us in this room know. But I also just think... I lost my train of thought, so I don't know where the question was going.
Zahra Fazal:
You know you're picking a fight, though, by making that statement.
Takondwa Semphere:
I know, and I stand firmly on that.
Zahra Fazal:
I am so grateful. You should get a Tanzanian bracelet, honorary citizen.
Takondwa Semphere:
I should to rival with the-
Zahra Fazal:
Yes.
Takondwa Semphere:
Yes.
Zahra Fazal:
Hell yeah.
Willie Thompson:
Wait, what's the rivalry for the ignorant folk?
Takondwa Semphere:
Kenya because Kenyans wear the black, red, green, which is also the flag of Malawi, so that would suit me better, technically. But we're next door to each other, so I think this makes sense. The question of also language of instruction, because you mentioned earlier learning about Shakespeare in Kiswahili. I think that is just such ... language shapes how you think and how you see the world, and I just imagine what the possibilities would be if we had children reading texts in different languages. I also think about the limits of language, and there are many moments where I bump up against English words and ways of expression because there's something I need to say that only exists in my language. So, I wish I could wave on and learn to speak it so I could read how Shakespeare was translated for Swahili. That was just a comment. There was actually no question there. I realize that was a comment on a point you made earlier.
Zahra Fazal:
No, you're so good. And I think to your point as well, we have the national languages, and we also have a lot of tribal languages all across Eastern Africa, and those are disappearing. And so when we talk about language as a way of documenting histories and cultures, the disappearances of those languages are also very important to talk about and very important to work around and try and preserve it because then you are losing a whole community and culture. And so that's really at the forefront of my mind. And at least when I was doing the project in Tanzania, that came up quite a bit where people with albinism spoke a language that was tribal, and a lot of them came from a specific region where that language was now slowly disappearing. And being able to say that, "Okay, if we are going to make music to disseminate findings from the study, we'll do it in the tribal language too," even though it may not be spoken by most of the people in the country, most people who might consume it abroad. But having that language is important because that's true. It's the way we preserve ourselves.
Takondwa Semphere:
It's the way we preserve ourselves. That's beautiful.
Taylor Goss:
And you mentioning the song specifically in Swahili, we'll include that in the show notes, too, because there was this advocacy song that came out of your work. I hope people go and listen to that after they finish this episode.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah, I hope they do too. And I know you would appreciate that because as a musician, I remember ... well, you as a musician, not me. Let me clarify. But whenever I would come to Denning, that was my wow moment meeting you and realizing that-
Taylor Goss:
Oh.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah, no, truly, because doing two degrees, but also you spend a lot of time performing, which, as a student, is honestly, a lot to take on. And I've attended some of your performances, at least on campus.
Taylor Goss:
And I'm grateful for it.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah. No, it's been very cool to watch, honestly. I could never muster it up in me to be creative and stand in front of a crowd, but I mean, when I see people do it, I'm always amazed, honestly.
Taylor Goss:
Well, I appreciate that. But in a way, you have because you've presented your work to a large audience, even if it is online. You follow that same artistic intuition just in your own way. But I appreciate that.
Zahra Fazal:
That's fair. Thank you.
Taylor Goss:
As we are reaching the end of our session here, there's a couple of more things we wanted to ask you about. It's an incredibly fun fact about your creativity and what you've written and the Wattpad that I think will make it into the show notes, so maybe people can go read some of your older work. But as we turn from fun facts to improbable facts, I'm wondering, with the Knight-Hennessy application, something everyone who has applied to Knight-Hennessy has done is filled out your eight improbable facts. And for a lot of people, it ends up being, at least for me, was I spent the most time on it, mostly in terms of the entire application. So, how was that process for you, and would you be comfortable sharing an improbable fact with us?
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah. No, definitely. It was also the hardest part for me. I was going back and forth, being like, "What is improbable?" Because how do I think about that versus someone else who doesn't know me? Because I obviously know myself, so it took me a while. But maybe I'll read out two that I put down. The first one being that I taught myself crocheting during the pandemic and then had a small gig where I had a little business at home.
Taylor Goss:
Oh, great.
Zahra Fazal:
I unfortunately stopped that because I was like, "Wow. I really like the creativity of choosing my own colors and not having that chosen." So, it was short-lived. And then the second one, actually, I don't know if I had put this one down, but it is an improbable fact, is that in the past year ... so I definitely hadn't put this down on the scholarship. But in the past year, I was diagnosed with dyslexia, which explains why I cannot tell my lefts and rights and why I'm such a bad teammate whenever people play board games. Do not choose me. I will take forever to understand the rules of the board game, and by then, I'll probably just act like I do and then not be good at it.
Taylor Goss:
Oh, I'll be honest with you. I have a hard time understanding board game rules myself.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah?
Taylor Goss:
I think that's a universal experience. You sit around a table with nine people, and it's like, okay, so if you're in the castle and you receive a spade-
Zahra Fazal:
It goes on forever.
Taylor Goss:
... then you're probably going to have to roll down the chute before you roll a 10, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Takondwa Semphere:
But that can be canceled by this other card, and there's always one person who knows the rules and desperately wants for everyone else to get it, but just can't get there.
Taylor Goss:
Yes. Yes, yes.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah.
Taylor Goss:
Yeah. I love with the crocheting you mentioned about making a little gig out of it. I love that your ability to see a creative act or some need in the world and then take it and broaden it, whether it is for a gig or something that you can contribute to your community in some way. It seems that you're really good at noticing things that need attention in your life or other people's lives and bringing light to it, and it's really cool to see how that manifests itself on a very personal level, like with your crocheting.
Zahra Fazal:
Thank you. That is so sweet. Because I'm applying for jobs, and maybe that is some skill I should be putting down.
Takondwa Semphere:
Yeah. You've got an entrepreneurial bone in your body.
Zahra Fazal:
I never thought so.
Takondwa Semphere:
You have a knack for identifying needs and addressing them. I also love what you said about the improbable fact because I think that word is something that a lot of people probably thought about quite a lot. What does it mean for something to be improbable? It's also very contextual because it might be improbable in the place where I grew up to have played football as a girl as a child, and it might not be as improbable elsewhere. So, it's still relative, but I think one common thread I've noticed in people is that what most people did was just talk about things that stood out to them and communicated that out.
Taylor Goss:
One final question?
Zahra Fazal:
Yes.
Taylor Goss:
Okay. Would you have any advice to anyone who's considering applying to Knight-Hennessy about the application and about the process? And would you mind talking a little bit about how your experience in Knight-Hennessy has shaped your experience at Stanford?
Zahra Fazal:
I think, I guess maybe not so much in the application, but in the experience of being a Knight-Hennessy Scholar, maybe an advice I would have that I wish maybe I had given to myself was, when I think about the Knight-Hennessy experience, the part that made it more fruitful for me, which could be given as an advice, is to cultivate the mentorship and to look for mentor matches quite a bit. Because the experience has a lot to give, and you make it what you want. But at the same time, I feel like if you have mentors who are invested in your success, it even goes beyond the program. It goes beyond your time at Stanford. And so, using your inlet through Knight-Hennessy to search for those mentors and to create a circle around you of people who support you, people, friends, community members, professors, who would want the best for you. Because I think every scholar probably, at some point, has felt imposter syndrome, and going to that circle and that core group of mentors, of friends, is what gets you through Stanford and through Knight-Hennessy. So, thinking about that intentionally even before you come in, I think, would be beneficial.
Taylor Goss:
I think that's beautiful advice both on campus and for anyone who is even pre-thinking about applying to it, to graduate school or anything like Knight-Hennessy. Yeah, understanding your community and understanding how both you can contribute to it and what you might be able to carry with you and contribute to others down the line because I think that connected to what you're saying about being thoughtful about mentorship helps you be a better mentor to other people later down the line. And the more thoughtful you can be about the way you interact with your mentors makes you more open-eyed to who you can give advice to or provide some experience to, whether or not you want to call that mentorship.
Zahra Fazal:
Absolutely. And I really, really like that 100% because it is a feedback loop.
Takondwa Semphere:
Yeah. And honestly, I also think of mentorship as a kind of community because I find that-
Taylor Goss:
Absolutely.
Takondwa Semphere:
... the people who I turn to when I've got questions about something on access are not the people who I turn to when I'm crying, which I've done with you. Or I think it really takes a community to keep us whole and held together, so I really love that you spoke about that.
Zahra Fazal:
Yes. Absolutely. I agree.
Taylor Goss:
Well, Zahra, this has been so lovely. Thank you so much for spending an afternoon with us.
Zahra Fazal:
Thank you guys. No, this is really, really fun.
Takondwa Semphere:
I'm so happy that you took the time to do this, especially because we spoke about the importance of leaving an archive of yourself, so to speak, and this feels like you're doing that in our community. So, thank you for being here.
Zahra Fazal:
I love how you put that. Absolutely. No, I'm very grateful that I got a chance to spend time with friends and talk about life because I do think it's important, I agree, to leave a little bit of yourself in communities that have given so much to you. And Knight-Hennessy really has truly.
Taylor Goss:
I hope that you're able to bask in the fact that you've finished presenting your dissertation and submitting it.
Zahra Fazal:
Yay.
Taylor Goss:
We all have a long road after that. But for now, celebrate. Congratulations. And again, thank you so much for coming.
Zahra Fazal:
Thank you guys. Thank you.
Takondwa Semphere:
I feel a need to clap.
Zahra Fazal:
Yeah, me too.
Takondwa Semphere:
That was so good.
Taylor Goss:
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Imagine A World, where we hear from inspiring members of the KHS community who are making significant contributions in their respective fields, challenging the status quo, and pushing the boundaries of what is possible as they imagine the world they want to see.
Willie Thompson:
This podcast is sponsored by Knight-Hennessy Scholars at Stanford University, a multidisciplinary, multicultural graduate fellowship program, providing scholars with financial support to pursue graduate studies at Stanford while helping equip them to be visionary, courageous, and collaborative leaders who address complex challenges facing the world. Follow us on social media at Knight-Hennessy, and visit our website at kh.stanford.edu to learn more about the program and our community.
