Falling in love with humanity
In this episode, Willie Thompson (2022 cohort) and Max Du (2024 cohort) speak with Catharine Bowman (2022 cohort) about how her lived experiences have fueled her research focus on ensuring that patients living with lymphatic diseases are properly diagnosed and treated. Catharine also shares how her studies led to her falling in love with humanity, how she tries to keep a child-like sense of wonder and openness in her approach to research and life in general, and some of the people and research projects that give her hope.
Guest
Catharine Bowman (2022 cohort), from Dundas, Canada, is pursuing a master’s degree in epidemiology and clinical research, and a PhD in epidemiology and clinical research at Stanford School of Medicine. She graduated First Class from the University of Calgary with an Honours Bachelor of Health Sciences, receiving the President’s Award for Leadership. She has further pursued an MD degree at the Cumming School of Medicine. Catharine aspires to develop innovative healthcare solutions for patients experiencing lymphatic disorders by integrating the study of health equity, culture, and lymphology.
At fifteen, Catharine established a national research effort to improve the diagnosis and treatment of lymphedema, becoming one of the youngest lymphatic researchers in the world. As vice president of the Alberta Lymphedema Association, and through her speaking campaign, Catharine has presented on lymphedema internationally. Catharine is a Leader in Health Sciences Scholar, and has been named one of Calgary’s Top 40 Under 40 (Avenue Magazine) and one of Forbes Magazine’s 30 Under 30.
Hosts
Max Du (2024 cohort) was raised in Manlius, New York, and is pursuing a PhD in computer science at Stanford School of Engineering. He graduated from Stanford with a bachelor’s degree in computer science and minors in creative writing and psychology. Max is interested in making robots that learn rapidly and robustly by leveraging diverse past data, exploring with innate curiosity, and recovering elegantly from mistakes.
Willie Thompson (2022 cohort), from Griffin, Georgia, is pursuing a master's degree in business administration at Stanford Graduate School of Business and a master's degree in policy, organization, and leadership studies at Stanford Graduate School of Education. He graduated summa cum laude from Morehouse College with a bachelor’s degree in economics and a minor in Chinese Studies. Willie intends to create and contribute to organizations using the arts as a conduit for community building and intercultural education.
Imagine A World's theme music was composed and recorded by Taylor Goss. The podcast was originally conceived and led by Briana Mullen (2020 cohort), Taylor Goss (2021 cohort), and Willie Thompson, along with Daniel Gajardo (2020 cohort) and Jordan Conger (2020 cohort).
Special thanks to Rachel Desch (2023 cohort), Tanajia Moye-Green (2024 cohort), Ryan Wang (2024 cohort), and Elle Rae Tumpalan, KHS marketing and events assistant.
Knight-Hennessy scholars represent a vast array of cultures, perspectives, and experiences. While we as an organization are committed to elevating their voices, the views expressed are those of the scholars, and not necessarily those of KHS.
Full transcript
Note: Transcripts are generated by machine and lightly edited by humans. They may contain errors.
Catharine Bowman:
We map it. It sounds like I had, yes, I had these kind of milestone things I wanted to try to do, say train with Dr. Rockson or prior to coming to Stanford, I was in medical school. Those types of things were like thoughts, but I had a ton of fun moving through those phases of life. Obviously, the first situation of the cancer diagnosis and lymphedema, that was tough, but we still were kind of learning new ways of going through life as a family and things that definitely worked, things that didn't. I think a cute example is like I used to come home from school and my mom would be resting her lymphedema leg and I would come upstairs and we would watch Oprah and have popcorn and smoothies. I'm Catharine Bowman. I'm a member of the 2022 cohort and a third year PhD candidate in epidemiology and clinical research. I imagine a world where no patient living with a lymphatic disease is left without a diagnosis or adequate treatment.
Sydney Hunt:
Welcome to the Imagine A World Podcast from Knight-Hennessy Scholars. We are here to give you a glimpse into the Knight-Hennessy scholar community of graduate students spanning all seven Stanford schools, including business, education, engineering, humanities, law, medicine, and sustainability. In each episode, we talk with scholars about the world they imagine and what they are doing to bring it to life.
Willie Thompson:
Today, we've got Catharine Bowman, a third year PhD candidate in epidemiology and clinical research. During our conversation, you'll hear Catharine discuss her journey West from Dundas to Palo Alto, the life-changing moment that led her to dedicate her career to curing lymphedema, how she had fun along the way, and so much more.
Hey, what's up y'all? Welcome to another episode of the Imagine A World Podcast. I am one of your co-hosts, Willie Thompson, a 2022 cohort at the ed school right now after finishing two years at the business school, and I am joined as always by a co-host, a new co-host this time in Max Du. Actually, Max, do you want to introduce yourself? Go for it.
Max Du:
Yeah. Hey. Hey, y'all, this is Max Du. I'm 2024 cohort. I study computer science. I'm a PhD student.
Willie Thompson:
Awesome. And today, what word could I use? Honor?
Catharine Bowman:
Oh, dear.
Willie Thompson:
Pleasure? Privilege?
Catharine Bowman:
Wow, thank you.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, privilege of having truly actually, and I'll say this now, one of the most impressive people that I know in life. No, seriously impressive... What's interesting is it's not just the impressive part, it's the fact that you're not intimidating either. It's like the balance of not intimidating and impressive.
Catharine Bowman:
Thanks, Willie.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, we got Catharine Bowman on the pod today.
Catharine Bowman:
Hi, everybody.
Willie Thompson:
So yeah, so look, we have so much to talk about. Actually, before we get into the nitty-gritty of the conversation, how are you doing? It's a Friday, sunny outside. How are you feeling?
Catharine Bowman:
I'm doing well. The sun is shining, it's nice and warm, had a wonderful bike ride in today.
Willie Thompson:
Okay.
Catharine Bowman:
Cannot complain.
Willie Thompson:
So, you're biking from home, so you go off campus, okay.
Catharine Bowman:
Yep. Yeah, over in Menlo Park.
Willie Thompson:
Nice, very cool. Well, we have so much to discuss and thinking about your Imagine A World statement actually, there's something about it that is very, I feel like unique relative to a lot of other Imagine A World statements where a lot of them I find are very broad, which we love and we welcome. Yours is very specific, and so we will get to the specificity, what's driving the specificity behind that statement. But before that, before we talk about the world you imagine, the very specific world you imagine, let's talk about the world you were born into. So, what was your journey here to Stanford?
Catharine Bowman:
So, I can probably start that kind of way back. So, I grew up in Dundas, Ontario, in Canada, and I had a wonderful childhood. I have three older brothers and my parents were in Dundas with us and I had that great childhood. Things started to get a little bit different, some family members were diagnosed with cancer, my grandparents, and immediately after my parents as well. And so, my parents both had melanoma when I was a kid. My mom went through her treatment and as a result of her treatment, ended up developing this lifelong incurable disease called lymphedema, which starts to get at what brought me to Stanford, as well as my Imagine A World statement. Seeing my mom's life change and our family context really shift with this new diagnosis, I made a promise that is really the pipeline of what brought me here.
I said, "Mom, I'm going to cure you or treat you one day." We can kind of get into it more, but as a teenager I started to actually actualize that promise and try to pick away at the iceberg. And through my years as a teen, I met a lymphatic clinician and researcher here at Stanford, Dr. Stanley Rockson. And I remember meeting him, I think in Chicago and saying, "I want to work for you one day," and I was I think 15 and he said, "If you can get into Stanford and make your way over, I would be happy to have you." And so 10 years later I'm here working with him on my thesis work focused on lymphedema, how we can improve treatment and diagnosis.
Max Du:
So, you grew up with three older brothers, you were the youngest child?
Catharine Bowman:
Yes.
Max Du:
What was that like?
Catharine Bowman:
It was great. Yeah, my brothers are wonderful.
Willie Thompson:
What are their names?
Catharine Bowman:
So Jordan, Patrick, and David, big shout out, and then they all have wonderful partners as well. Really close family, but also pushed each other to go beyond. So, I think a great example is most of my brothers are kind of 6'0"-ish and I'm 5'2", but I absolutely was right up with them playing hockey and basketball and trying to be a little bit like my older brothers and give them a bit of a challenge. So, it was a playful type of competition in the house, but everybody is also really proud of each other, so there's a lot of warmth and growth.
Max Du:
As the youngest child, could you get away with lot more because you were the youngest child?
Catharine Bowman:
You could ask my mom, I really don't know, or the brothers. They might say yes.
Max Du:
What do you think?
Catharine Bowman:
I tried not to do that, but I don't know. You'd have to ask the guys. They would have a good answer for you, yeah.
Willie Thompson:
Might do a family's episode of the podcast where you just bring people's families and we just-
Catharine Bowman:
That'd be so fun. The guys would be right here. They're like, "Yeah, I'm in."
Max Du:
Let me tell you a story.
Willie Thompson:
Awesome, well look, I want talk a little bit, but before we get more into the research and work you're doing here at Stanford. This goes back to the, again, I know I said this at the top of the pod, impressive and not intimidating, amazing balance that Catharine strikes. Okay, so you have this moment when your parents are both diagnosed with cancer, you decide at that moment you're going to treat your mother of lymphedema, an incurable disease. Remind the audience how old you were when you said that.
Catharine Bowman:
I would've been eight.
Willie Thompson:
Eight?
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah.
Willie Thompson:
Okay. Now, from eight to, and by my math, 10 years ago you talked to the guy, you're 25, all that kind of stuff... I'm charting the journey from like eight to 25 and the amount of I might intuit focus required to chart that path and how you seemingly went from Dundas to Calgary to California, you just keep going West. I don't know if you're going any further west.
Catharine Bowman:
Further and further.
Willie Thompson:
But yeah, just talk about that journey and just mapping that path from eight, 15, 25, and just getting to hear, because it is remarkable.
Catharine Bowman:
Thank you. Yeah, it was a ton of fun and I think that's like when we map it, it sounds like, yes, I had these kind of milestone things I wanted to try to do, like say train with Dr. Rockson or prior to coming to Stanford, I was in medical school. Those types of things were thoughts, but I had a ton of fun moving through those phases of life. Obviously, the first situation of the cancer diagnosis and lymphedema, that was tough, but we still were kind of learning new ways of going through life as a family and things that definitely work, things that didn't. I think a cute example is I used to come home from school and my mom would be resting her lymphedema leg and I would come upstairs and we would watch Oprah and have popcorn and smoothies. And I made that promise to her, but I also used something like science fair projects as a way to actualize moving through that promise and that trajectory to here.
So, I would start reading research articles and stuff like that and ask my mom, she used to be a palliative care nurse, "What does this word mean?" And it became this kind of bonding journey for the two of us and moving through that and then I started doing these research projects. I was writing proposals that I actually really enjoyed writing, science communication became a big theme of my teen years, and collaborating with senior investigators, with other grad students when I was still in high school where I could go home at the end of my school day and then off to the lab. And it just became this actually really fun extracurricular activity and it followed a line. The more that I learned, the more the path I think became a little bit more clear. Going over to Calgary, I first moved when I was in grade 10.
So I had written a proposal, started working at I think McMaster University in Ontario on a bit of a side project. Not a lot of people work in lymphatics, so I was working on immune function and some compounds I had identified to try to treat lymphedema. And then through that an offer came to intern basically at the University of Calgary, moved out there for a summer with my mom, and we got to explore the mountains while I was also doing science. That became my undergrad and my medical school home. And similar to coming here, this opportunity to work with Rockson has also come with a lot of joy and wonder has been a primary theme, just finding wonder in what we are doing. There are mundane days where you might be doing the same math or statistics or something like that, but when you look at the big picture, what a wonderful trajectory and experience to just be able to live.
Willie Thompson:
Absolutely, and I feel as if we're transitioning into the specifics around the research and everything, just for folks who are listening, I'm taking two med school classes right now and we were talking about this at Denning the other day. The recall of medical students is ridiculous.
Catharine Bowman:
It's fun.
Willie Thompson:
It is fun, a lot packed in the brain there. Can you define for folks who are listening, what's melanoma, what's lymphedema?
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah.
Willie Thompson:
And I learned a lot about the immune system, just hearing you talk about it, but I just want to... For folks who might not be familiar with just defining melanoma and lymphedema and sort of how that manifests in patients.
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, so melanoma is a form of skin cancer in the case of... Well, there's a couple of things that characterize it, but oftentimes we might think of, "Oh, there's this kind of sinister looking mole on the skin and that can transform into actually quite an aggressive form of cancer if it's not caught early. In the case of say my mom and other patients who might develop this lymphedema that I'll describe, the melanoma metastasized. So, that meant that it went from the skin and it started to move through the body and moved in her case to lymph nodes, which is part of our lymphatic system. Lymphatic system is that immune system that helps us to fight off infection or to flag like, "Hey, we have cancer or something going on." And the lymph nodes that this cancer likes to go to are almost like the schools of the immune system where you might see a bacteria or a cancer and then the cell will come back to the lymph node school and tell all the students, "Hey, we got to go fix that."
And then our lymph nodes send out a bunch of immune cells through lymphatic vessel highways to go and attack that infection or that threat to the body. So, that's kind of melanoma, the immune system, the lymphatic system as I mentioned, is a big part of that immune function. It's a set of vessels, and then these lymph nodes, and a couple other organs in the body, like the spleen for example, really geared towards keeping us safe from immune invasion, balancing fluid in our body. So if you think about like, "Hey, I stubbed my toe on a door," that swelling and that redness, your lymphatic system is like, "Hey, we got a problem here," brings a bunch of immune cells, we do all the fixing, and then it takes the fluid away with all the debris, and then it also helps with moving what's called adipose tissue or fatty tissue throughout the body as well.
So, those are kind of three big things on lymphatics. Lymphedema is when we have a damage to that lymphatic system and we start to see accumulation of lymphatic fluid from those vessels kind of leaking into a particular part of the body. Think about a straw that's filled with water, you cut it in half, so maybe you have surgery to a lymph node and you take that out, we now have a disconnected lymphatic system that's leaking lymphatic fluid. So, we see patients who have lifelong swelling of a particular limb or part of their body, we see the lesser ability to fight infections in quite the same way, because that immune function is damaged, and then we also see kind of this adipose or fatty tissue starting to develop a lot more in a lymphedema limb than if you had an intact lymphatic system.
Max Du:
And before we go really deep into lymphedema and all the research you're doing, something that you said really struck me is that you lived your life in these different stages and you were only eight years old when your mom was diagnosed. And one thing that just really raises a lot of curiosity for me is at that age you're really just defining your relationship with your mom and you had this giant thing drop into your life, and I'm very curious at how did having this diagnosis change, evolve your relationship with your mom?
Catharine Bowman:
Awesome question. My relationship with my mom has always been very close, but I think this lymphedema diagnosis and the research also brought a really cool intellectual closeness as well. So, she again was a palliative care nurse, so worked in healthcare, and as I started through this research, we started to have almost like a journal club. I think I learned how my mom's intellectual side worked in a really different and cool way and I started to also see parts of myself in her, and her in myself.
So, I think there was this kind of fun that we could have together by learning from each other in a lot of ways. And I think this is also because the work has been inspired by her lymphedema, she will always be with me through that. And what a gift that actually is to be able to carry my mom with me and all of the lessons and the love that she has given to me and actually pump all of that into science to help other people. She once said to me when I was in med school, she said, "Catharine, I have watched you completely and wholeheartedly fall in love with humanity." And I think because of her involvement in the early stages of my research and how I view say the healthcare system and the giving practice, that complete and wholehearted love for humanity is really a manifestation of how she completely and wholeheartedly loves me, if I can put it that way.
Max Du:
Say more about how you fell in love with humanity through your studies.
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, so I think through my research I started meeting families of people who had say young kids with lymphedema, kind of the genetic form of lymphedema, all the way up to folks who are older in age. And I just realized that we are all moving through life in different contexts and whether or not we ask for those contexts I think doesn't matter. We just need to be able to humbly approach each other and offer kindness and love. And so, falling in love with humanity is my way of putting this unconditional love approach to the world and seeing that just being kind to people makes such a difference in our day-to-day. Showing love to people can make such a difference, and the more we pump that into the world, I think the better off we all are, if I can put it that way.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, and it's so interesting. You're so humble, you're so humble, Catharine, so humble. You were doing this in your teenage years and you were the youngest person to establish a national research effort to improve the diagnosis and treatment of lymphedema. So, that's in and of itself, like I said, impressive. That's going to be one of the words I probably can come back to. And something you said also unlocks something for me, I want to get your thoughts on it. This idea of doing it at such a young age and how it influenced your ability to do the work maybe differently than someone who's a little bit older. In what ways do you think... You're talking about joy and wonder, you're talking about being younger in your life. What do you think was different about your ability to draw insights and research at that age?
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, I think there was a child-like openness to the world and I guess I wasn't sticking myself into any sort of box and I try not to do it now. I try to keep that child-like wonder, but-
Willie Thompson:
It's hard, right?
Catharine Bowman:
... the world definitely likes to put-
Max Du:
Mm-hmm, it's very hard.
Catharine Bowman:
... us in boxes and I think as a kid it was something I could do that was fun and hopefully would be helpful. And I had the time and the space and honestly a team that really mentored me and supported me in being able to accomplish the things I wanted to accomplish. So, I think it was a lot of openness and excitement for discovery, seeing wonder in the opportunity in front of me. A lot of those things as a kid were kind of at the forefront, and now really trying to carry that forward as an adult and share that with other people was a big thing. I also feel like watching my grandparents pass away from cancer and then my parents' diagnosis, there was this feeling of from an early age, what a gift it is to be able to have time with each other as humans and to breathe air and to live life. And really being able to see that as a gift and not let go of that helps each day feel exciting, wonderful, joyful, even on the bad days. So, maybe not always joyful, but worth it.
Max Du:
So, what I'm getting from that is that by seeing people around you having these conditions, you have a better appreciation for life as it's going through. And one of the things that naturally comes up for me is that cancer is hereditary and if your parents have it, if your grandparents have it, have you ever thought that you might have susceptibility to this in the future? How does that impact you and your research?
Catharine Bowman:
Definitely, yeah. I also get my checks just in case it's a skin cancer, but that feeling of, hey, this might be coming for me, just honestly builds more into what we were discussing with make every day count and see how special each day is, because you don't know when things might change. When I was eight, definitely didn't see that one coming. I remember we actually had Suleika Jaouad come and speak with us last year as part of Knight-Hennessy and I interviewed her and she talked about this porous line between health and illness and how all-
Willie Thompson:
A little bit of context on who she is?
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, so she's a New York Times bestselling author. She wrote Between Two Kingdoms and that kind of tracks the journey of her young adult cancer diagnosis, and then when she after that went throughout the United States and started to meet with folks who had experienced cancer or other things in life and talked to them about life. And speaking with her, she talked about that porous line between health and illness. And I think that is a really solid way of articulating the human experience. We really don't know how much time we have. We don't know what that time will look like. So, if we can lean into today in its fullness, I think that's all we can do sometimes, right?
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, absolutely. And when it comes to the work that you're doing here at Stanford, there are a couple of questions that come to mind. One is, I know when we first started at Knight-Hennessy, you just were doing the MS and epidemiology and now the PhD's been tacked on. We'd love to get your take on adding the PhD, because I know sometimes people sort see the profiles of people in the community and say, "Oh." They may not see that change, and then they'll just sort of start backwards mapping like, "Oh, of course, the PhD and all sort stuff." So, we'd love to get your thoughts on that. And then my second question... I'll hold on to my second question for now, but we'll just get through that real quick and then I have another, just a quick follow up.
Catharine Bowman:
Cool. So, I first was coming out of, I was in I think the last 10 months of medical school and I just felt like I needed more kind of numeric quantitative methods. I hadn't done a ton of epidemiology work before, and so part of my choice of like, "Hey, I should do the master's as opposed to going fully to a PhD," is I wasn't sure if I was going to be kind of dragging my boots. I'm very much a qualitative person, so I was like, "Oh, if I am doing four to six years of PhD numbers, maybe I'm going to be miserable." So, it was a little bit like, "I think I'm going to try this out," and also knowing later in life maybe I would add a PhD if I really liked it or I felt like I needed additional training. I also, again, was working on my MD and you see a lot of MDs who have a master's in epi, because you get the start of those quant skills.
So, I came and then I was sitting in biostatistics and I loved it, and that blew my mind because I was not expecting that. I had a wonderful professor, Dr. Kristin Sainani, she's a scholarly writer, also writes for, I think it's Washington Post, so excellent communicator and brilliant biostatistician and things started to make a lot more sense in terms of how to execute biostats. And so, I think that was one of the first clicks of like, "Oh, I'm actually enjoying doing this and I'd love to keep going." The other side of things was I was maybe six months into my master's and had just been getting going on some of the work with Dr. Rockson, and I realized how short two years of a master's was going to be.
Max Du:
It goes by quickly.
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, and I had so many more questions scientifically that I wanted to ask. I had so many questions as a student of his to ask and learn. And so it was just this curiosity, this enjoyment of learning, I think, that really sent me into the space of considering a PhD. I also loved the community. I mean, you both know it, Knight-Hennessy, the greater Stanford community, what a cool group of people to be able to connect with and build out friendships, professional relationships with. And so, it felt like it would be done so quickly. And so yeah, those were kind of the factors that I was considering and knowing that if I were to do additional graduate training, like a PhD, I'm also so excited to go back to medicine. So, it wouldn't necessarily be something that I would want to drag on and on and on.
Willie Thompson:
Right.
Catharine Bowman:
I had something that also would be motivating to really push through that extra graduate training as opposed to letting it space out.
Willie Thompson:
And you have one more year of med school and you go back to Canada, right?
Catharine Bowman:
Yep.
Willie Thompson:
Okay, got it, yeah. And what are some of the challenges with addressing both the diagnosis and treatment aspects of folks with lymphedema or lymphatic diseases?
Catharine Bowman:
Definitely, so I think a couple of things. So, that it's twofold is how I'm going to answer that question. In terms of diagnosis, I think a lot of the medical system is unfamiliar with lymphedema and lymphatic diseases. I have a myriad of reasons why that may be/is, but part of it is we need to get more education out earlier on, I think, in medical education, so that physicians can recognize it, and then the latter half of that is treatment. A couple of things, so where we are sending patients for their treatment?
Some docs are not as familiar with it or allied health professionals. The types of treatments we have are very kind of what are called palliative or symptom based. So in the case of say, my mom's lymphedema, these are really tight compression garments that are going up on her... It's on her full leg and squeezing the lymphatic system, so that it keeps pumping lymphatic fluid, but you can imagine in the middle of the heat of the summer or as someone is a little kid with genetic lymphedema versus also someone who is in their 80s or 90s with lymphedema, that's a really hard thing to get on and get off, it restricts your mobility. So, I think our treatments need some expansion. Not all docs know how to set up that compression, kind of insurance coverage, things like that depending on the country. Those are challenges for the treatment side of things.
But I really do think that our understanding of the lymphatic system and when things go wrong, i.e. lymphatic disease, that needs to be built a lot more for us to really get people a diagnosis and adequate treatment, which is part of what I study. In addition to these kind of applied treatments, I'm also like, "Hey, what does happen when lymphedema manifests?" We know it affects quality of life for sure, but are there other things like, why do people get infections over and over? Are there other things that lymphedema might affect from a physical biomedical standpoint in addition to quality of life?
Max Du:
What you just said about there not being enough knowledge or awareness of lymphedema is very interesting to me, especially because it seems like it's not a trivial condition to have and a lot of people have it, right?
Willie Thompson:
Yeah.
Max Du:
And it's like, why do you think that not enough people, doctors, the public know about this? When I read lymphedema, I'm like, "I don't know what that is." Is there a reason why?
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, so I mean, part of it is our team works on some educational reform, so getting it into curricula is really important. Being able to formulate what's called a differential diagnosis, so this is med school 101. When you see a patient presenting with say, swelling in their arm, like lymphedema, you need to be able to think about, "Oh," or say swelling in their legs as a good example. Is this something like congestive heart failure? Is it a heart issue? Is there something with the lungs causing all of this fluid buildup or is it something like lymphedema? So, having a lymphatic system diagnosis actually make it into that differential.
Max Du:
Interesting.
Catharine Bowman:
So, training early on in education to even consider the lymphatic system I think is a really important thing for us. There's other challenges I think for say specifically the lymphedema patient after cancer treatment where people have just gone through their cancer and you see this in the literature, I've heard it within my own research talking to patients, people feel like, "Well, I just had cancer and now it's gone. I should probably just be happy with this or okay with this, because I'm alive." So, there's this chronic disease coping and adaptation that can happen, and I think over time that may have also slightly diminished our appreciation for the impact of this condition psychosocially or physically. So yeah, there's a couple of different things that I think play into it. Also, historical part of me loves to look at the fact that the lymphatic system was identified at the same time as the cardiovascular system in history.
Willie Thompson:
Oh, cool.
Catharine Bowman:
And so-
Willie Thompson:
There's much more on the cardiovascular system than on the lymphatic system.
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, and so when you look at the original writings, it's basically said there's this robust set of red vessels and they're easier to manipulate. And then there are these very fragile little lymphatics, like little milky white vessels that are hard to study. And I wonder if that bifurcation also historically might've played a role in kind of how we have studied the lymphatic system over time, because it's a very fragile system to work with.
Max Du:
So, it's very hard to look at, it's very hard to study. Do you think that that is a big contribution to why it's less known to the public and to the doctors?
Catharine Bowman:
I think it could be, it could be part of the story. I think there's those other factors that we discussed also, but I know even for myself, when I used to work in a wet lab, like a wet lab at a bench and work with the lymphatic systems-
Willie Thompson:
What's a wet lab?
Catharine Bowman:
So, a wet lab is when you kind of picture a scientist and they're using tools at, I don't know, like a science bench there might be like beakers, and fluids, or they're working with mice, those types of settings when I refer to wet lab is what I mean. So, I used to work specifically with taking lymphatic vessels out of mice and then basically trying to what's called cannulate or fill them with fluid and then study how the lymphatic vessels pump. And with that, I learned how fragile they are, because if you poke it the wrong way with a set of tiny tweezers, your lymphatic smooth muscle can die and that's the end of your experiment.
Max Du:
So fragile.
Catharine Bowman:
Very, yeah.
Willie Thompson:
And what's giving you hope towards this world that you imagine? Whether it's your research in the field, what are some things that are giving you a reason to think that that world is coming?
Catharine Bowman:
So a couple of things. The first is you should meet the lymphedema patients, they're amazing. They've advocated for their care throughout their trajectory, which also means when you see them educating other people or working with government to try to get better coverage for lymphedema therapies, they're very solid at advocating, and so the people have hope. That gives me hope from a research standpoint. I think there's been some really interesting momentum within plastic and reconstructive surgery, trying to use surgery as a tool to treat lymphedema. And so I think not for quite the first time, but the first time in a while we've seen a new medical domain or specialty take lymphedema in as its own.
And I think that's actually provided a lot of momentum and hope because we see a lot of reconstructive surgeons now innovating in and around the lymphatic surgery space, which is pretty interesting. Within our own team at Stanford, we have a drug trial going on right now for lymphedema and some of the other research projects and having colleagues who are ranging in and around my level of training, there's a future that's building here and there's a lot of excitement in that future, I think. And then I think the last piece is the hope never died in me when I had it at eight. I still have that degree of hopefulness and wonder and excitement of I think we can really make a difference for people one day. That's the other piece that brings me towards that hopeful statement.
Max Du:
So, you talk about needing to talk and interact with the lymphedema patients, and you've done a lot of that yourself, and I'm so curious, given the very personal nature of this thing for you, too, are there stories from meeting patients that resonated with you, things that you remember?
Catharine Bowman:
Mm-hmm, yeah. So a couple of them, the first time I met a lymphedema patient who was not my mother, that has stuck with me, and it was actually two parents of a little boy who had lymphedema, the genetic form of lymphedema. I think for them it was also a pretty new experience to just encounter somebody who knew about lymphedema in their day-to-day, it was at a science fair. And I think just the unspoken appreciation for each other was huge, and that's why that experience stuck out to me was there was an understanding there of the number of things that a lymphedema patient has to go through, that very few other people in that science fair auditorium had.
Max Du:
It's like a solidarity.
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, it was kind of like, "I see you and you see me," and that's very validating, and then there is another experience, I think I was giving a talk in British Columbia, a patient I had met had some tears and we kind of exchanged some words and had a really good hug I think at the end of that experience, and about probably 10 years later, I was giving a talk in British Columbia again and I saw her from a distance and there was just a nod and we kind of continued. So, it's those moments that I guess there isn't some huge monumental milestone or anything like that, but my favorite author is Joan Didion and she talks about how the ordinary moment can become extraordinary. And I think those moments, extraordinary moments, they were just very ordinary, but there is an understanding and an exchange of energy and an appreciation for one another that really sticks with me.
Max Du:
Yeah, the simplicity of it is the most beautiful. These are just two lives and you're interacting and you kind of see each other in a very different way.
Catharine Bowman:
Mm-hmm.
Willie Thompson:
Maybe it's a little ignorant question, but just as a US citizen, American, because anyway, semantics, language, you keep bringing up science fair. To me, when I grew up, my science fair was kind of this honky-donky thing they made you do to show that you could do the scientific method. Max, have you ever done a science fair?
Max Du:
Oh, I have.
Willie Thompson:
Okay, okay. Actually, just a quick aside here, what did you do for your science fair?
Max Du:
I did different things. I made little gadgets. I did load AI things, but you also mentioned you were at the Intel International Fair, is that what it was?
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah.
Willie Thompson:
Right.
Max Du:
I was also at-
Catharine Bowman:
Oh.
Willie Thompson:
Oh, you were also at that fair?
Max Du:
Yeah, but I'm sure different times.
Catharine Bowman:
He's done some pretty solid science fair, okay.
Willie Thompson:
Okay, all right, so-
Catharine Bowman:
The high standard is here, Max...
Willie Thompson:
It takes a high standard to know a high standard. I've already dropped the impressive word four or five times. So, clearly you two have a sense of the levels that there are to science fairs... I feel like y'all are talking the NBA of science fairs-
Max Du:
Very specific energy.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, I feel like it's the NBA, like the National Basketball Association of... And my only science fair project was I tried to make a lie detector. I didn't even make it, but I tried to stuff. It was a cool idea, but anyway.
Catharine Bowman:
Good science though.
Willie Thompson:
Thank you. Well, my chemistry teacher wouldn't let us do volcanoes. She's like, "That's elementary, you need to actually do something that's topical."
Max Du:
Too cliche.
Willie Thompson:
It's too cliche. She's like, "You need to have rigor to your inquiry." I was like, "All right, sure, whatever."
Catharine Bowman:
I got a good story on that. Anyways, continue.
Willie Thompson:
About volcanoes or about the lie detector test?
Catharine Bowman:
Volcano.
Willie Thompson:
Okay. All right, let's get it.
Catharine Bowman:
I'll tell you after.
Willie Thompson:
Okay. All right, do you want to do it now? No?
Catharine Bowman:
No, you go ahead.
Willie Thompson:
All right, cool. We'll wait. So yeah, maybe y'all can just talk about this. What is this? This sounds like an international circuit of science fairs, because it sounds like legit, because when you keep mentioning science fair, initially when we were doing research and just talking about this, I'm like, "Oh yeah, poster boards, and walking around, maybe like a dingy cafeteria or something," but I don't think that's what y'all were doing, was it?
Max Du:
It's like one of those things where it's like there is that, but then it's like if you imagine someone taking it to the next level, that is the International Science Fair. Which years were you there?
Catharine Bowman:
2014 and '15.
Max Du:
What was that like?
Catharine Bowman:
Oh, it was wonderful.
Max Du:
Did you find a community there?
Catharine Bowman:
Exactly, and so yes, this whole National Basketball Association of Science or like the Kid Olympics of Science Fair or yeah, it's kind of how I think of... We call it ISEF, International Science and Engineering Fair. My early projects, I will say, I think my first project was looking as to whether a coffee filter or a... Oh no, it was river moss, was a better filter for water, and it was very backyard. I had went to the river nearby and then I scooped up a bunch of water and then put it through a coffee filter and put it through moss, and then I think I had a friend who had a microscope and maybe a friend, I think I ended up weighing two different pieces of paper, see what had more sediment, stuff like that were the early science fair projects.
Willie Thompson:
That's very cool.
Catharine Bowman:
It was very fun.
Willie Thompson:
Much more cool than a volcano.
Catharine Bowman:
Well, yeah. Here's the thing about that Volcano. So a couple years later, another science fair project was I think I looked at whether reusable grocery bags had bacterial growth if you didn't wash them.
Willie Thompson:
Oh.
Catharine Bowman:
So, I just swabbed them. A friend of a friend knew how to run Petri dish science stuff, taught me some things.
Willie Thompson:
Okay.
Catharine Bowman:
So, I did that and through that project I ended up being invited to partake in the world record for the largest baking soda and vinegar volcano in the world.
Max Du:
Okay, how did you get from A to B?
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, yeah.
Catharine Bowman:
Something here. So, I think the Discovery Channel, which is kind of a big TV channel in Canada and elsewhere I suppose, but-
Willie Thompson:
In the US as well, I love Discovery Channel.
Catharine Bowman:
US as well?
Willie Thompson:
Yep.
Catharine Bowman:
I wasn't sure. Yep, Alan Rickman was the guy who kind spearheaded this. He was looking for some youth scientists to help with this awesome project. So, through the local science fair, because I think that grocery bag project ended up doing well at our local science fair-
Willie Thompson:
So, what did you find? Because I actually have some reusable grocery bags at the house right now, but-
Catharine Bowman:
You should wash them.
Willie Thompson:
Okay, good to know. All right-
Max Du:
Makes sense.
Catharine Bowman:
Very gnarly.
Willie Thompson:
Very gnarly, okay.
Catharine Bowman:
A little at least. Yeah, it was a little bit not great, or you could just spray them with some antiseptic. Just be careful, because there's food. Anyways, all that fun stuff.
Willie Thompson:
Taking notes.
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, obviously, but through the local science fair, I think I won an award, and so the Discovery Channel team reached out to that science fair and I was one of a handful of kids. I don't know, I was like 12, and so you go, there's this huge volcano, and then it also exploded potatoes as part of it, and then-
Max Du:
Whole potatoes?
Willie Thompson:
Whole potatoes?
Catharine Bowman:
Whole potatoes.
Willie Thompson:
That sounds dangerous.
Catharine Bowman:
We had hardhats. No, it was great.
Willie Thompson:
Oh, you had a hardhat? Okay, okay, okay, cool, cool, cool.
Catharine Bowman:
Don't worry, there was safety equipment.
Willie Thompson:
Cool, I was thinking like mashed potatoes, but this is your basic russet from the Whole Foods aisle or Safeway or Trader Joe's, wherever you get your potatoes.
Catharine Bowman:
Wicked stuff.
Willie Thompson:
Wow.
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, so anyways, science fair brought me to those types of experiments, experiences, both, and then, yeah, I think when I was grade eight or grade nine, that's when I started thinking back to that promise that I made to my mom when I was eight, and I was like, "Man, I could use science fair as a platform to actually try to take a stab at this treatment for lymphedema, started doing much reading. I read a gardening magazine. I was eating lunch and it talked about this lupin flower and how they had anti-inflammatory properties. And what I had learned about lymphedema so far was, well, my mom is inflamed. This talks about anti-inflammatory. What if I put them together?
Willie Thompson:
Ooh.
Catharine Bowman:
And that was the big aha moment for what would send me off in 10 to 15 years of my life now. I wrote to the guy who had written that article, he gave me a list of compounds, I started reading about them. Two of them had some interesting interactions with what's called chronic venous insufficiency, so it's a different disease than the lymphedema, more of the cardiovascular system, but had a lot of commonalities. So, I picked those and then I picked one by random, and that was the one that actually over the course of the next five, six years of studying, the effect of these compounds on the lymphatic system actually had three really positive interactions and properties with a lymphedema-like environment. So, I was writing those into my science fair projects as I went along. I did have a poster board.
Willie Thompson:
Okay.
Catharine Bowman:
There was a poster board. I think by the end it was one of those pull-up tall screens.
Willie Thompson:
Ooh.
Max Du:
Block of text.
Catharine Bowman:
Very fancy.
Willie Thompson:
Wait, did you have one of those, too, Max?
Max Du:
Mm-hmm.
Willie Thompson:
Okay, yeah.
Catharine Bowman:
See, Max is-
Willie Thompson:
Oh, wow. Y'all are serious. I just had the-
Max Du:
We take things seriously in here.
Willie Thompson:
Well, you do.
Catharine Bowman:
What year did you go?
Max Du:
2018-2019.
Catharine Bowman:
Okay.
Max Du:
To Pittsburgh and Arizona.
Willie Thompson:
Is it in the same location?
Catharine Bowman:
They rotate.
Max Du:
No, it changes. Wait, where were yours?
Catharine Bowman:
I was Los Angeles and Pittsburgh.
Max Du:
Mine was Pittsburgh, too.
Willie Thompson:
Pittsburgh twice.
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, and then I think Phoenix is the third. They started to rotate three.
Willie Thompson:
Okay, there were three.
Catharine Bowman:
Now they're doing that.
Willie Thompson:
Probably big enough, you sort know places where you can go for that.
Catharine Bowman:
I suppose that.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah.
Catharine Bowman:
But yeah, science fair was like this space where kids who were interested in science and math and engineering and art as well could come together and connect. And it was a space where unfortunately I think, through media, we are primed or one is primed to think like, "Oh, science," we get this term like the nerd, and that has somehow a negative connotation, but just thinking about bringing 500 of some really smart kids together who love science, who are also unfortunately got a little used to maybe taking some of that negativity from the world about what they like and being together and celebrating each other for it, that is such a magic space and I think that helps with my personal self-confidence. That created some really close friendships for me in the long run and then just further instilled that love of the scientific process and research within me. So, it was really a transformative experience.
Max Du:
It opens up the possibility of connecting with fellow nerds. For so long, you're just like, "Oh, I am the nerd," in a place of like, "Oh my goodness, there's like 1,000 other nerds here and we're all having fun and we're all connecting." That's a huge moment, right?
Catharine Bowman:
Mm-hmm.
Willie Thompson:
My hot take is I think the nerds kind of won in... In the long game, the nerd's kind of won. I mean, it's the reason why Marvel or whatever, all these comic book stuff, it's like driving entertainment. It's got fandom stuff. I think the nerds are winning long term.
Catharine Bowman:
I agree.
Willie Thompson:
I'm long the nerds.
Max Du:
I'm very pro nerd as well, but the thing about the science fair that is so cool to me, and maybe for you is it is very self-directed. You're looking at this gardening magazine, you're like, "Oh, I have an idea. I'm going to just take this idea and do it by myself. I don't have to convince anybody else. I can just do it to self-direct it," right? This feels like something for you as well.
Catharine Bowman:
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean I think I was determined no matter what, to try to attack, tackle this promise and science fair gave me that framework, that medium, these milestones to work towards, whether it was a fair or a next level of competition. It was something that helped me package my drive, so to speak, and it was self-driven. I also am so grateful for the mentors who saw me for my potential and not just my age, or I would come to meetings in my high school uniform sometimes and everyone would be like, "Whose kid is that?" And it wasn't take your kid to work day, it was just another person at the table. And they really took me seriously and I think provided me with the supports I needed to excel and to continue that self-drive, so to speak, yeah.
Max Du:
I mean, that strikes me as something that is potentially challenging is that you are the youngest person in the room. You are in your high school uniform. Did you ever feel like people were challenging that about you, that you ever felt self-conscious about that?
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, well-
Willie Thompson:
I never thought about that, the high school outfit.
Catharine Bowman:
The kits, they were really cool. Yeah, there were moments where maybe I was new to somebody and then it wasn't necessarily that I felt wholly intimidated or self-conscious. It was more like, "Hey, I probably need to tell my story to this person, so that they do know that this is a serious endeavor." And I take this now as a trainee, as not a 14-year-old is when someone comes to you, take them seriously. You have no idea what their background, their life has looked like. Be open and be willing to just face people with kindness and openness to help, because that's exactly what I received. Sometimes it took a little bit of a conversation, but I think by the end of presenting my ideas or my drive or my vision, I would say most people were quite excited to work together and to support the mission.
Willie Thompson:
We've learned so much already. I'm going to go home and wash all my reusable bags as soon as I get home. And also that there's a professional league of scientists and nerds out there trying to solve the world's problems.
Catharine Bowman:
There's a documentary on it.
Willie Thompson:
Really?
Max Du:
They showed it at the 2019-
Willie Thompson:
What? Are you in the documentary?
Catharine Bowman:
I don't think my head was in it, no. I was looking, there's a big shot of a crowd was like, "Oh, is that my bun?" But it wasn't.
Max Du:
Okay.
Willie Thompson:
What's the name of the documentary?
Catharine Bowman:
Science Fair, I think it's.
Max Du:
Yeah, it's super generic. I'm like, "Okay."
Willie Thompson:
Man, come on. Another ... we need get some marketing people on that. That's a little too on the nose. But as we sort of wrap up our conversation here, you've already talked a lot about how being at Stanford in some ways being at Knight-Hennessy has sort of helped you further promote the work that you're doing and get more clarity about where you want to be. Before we get into improbable facts and close out, what advice would you have for other people who are applying to Stanford and Knight-Hennessy?
Catharine Bowman:
So the biggest thing, and maybe others have also said this, be yourself. If you can't avoid changing who you are, just be yourself. I think that's actually a really cool form of self-love is to just lean fully into ourselves. And when you are preparing applications, this is obviously coming from just personal experience, not admissions advice by any means, but I did my best to make sure that all the aspects of who I was were being represented in these applications. And that included say my improbable facts, talking to my childhood best friend and being like, "Do you think this is me or am I posing as X, Y, Z?"
And that really, I think is the big thing I would say is just be you. And if you have folks, not everybody does to ask those questions to, I would invite that as a helpful... That was a helpful practice for me. I also read my journal entries, like 10 years of journal entries to get to know me again, because I was in also the thick of med school and it's busy and hard and you are constantly... Like we're facing and supporting other people, so those moments of reflection were a little less common, because there was just slightly less space for it. So, reading back and looking back on my life to just recenter myself also was a really wonderful practice, both for applying into Stanford/Knight-Hennessy and just kind of regrounding myself as a person.
Willie Thompson:
I mean, you did find time in med school to record instrumental APs while you were in your first 12 weeks of school, but that's the first 12, right? Then you have what happens after that, which I'm assuming is all-encompassing. Let's talk about your improbable facts. I'll use that maybe as a segue to the improbable facts. I just mentioned your art. Again, impressive, lots of instruments that you play extremely well, including drums, piano, guitar, sing. By the way, Max, do you know she had EP?
Max Du:
I did not.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah she had EP.
Max Du:
What are the eight instruments?
Willie Thompson:
Oh yeah, good point. Yeah, maybe do you want to use this as the improbable fact?
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, guitar, piano, bass, drums, I sing.
Willie Thompson:
Okay, five.
Catharine Bowman:
Flugel.
Willie Thompson:
What?
Catharine Bowman:
The flugelhorn, ukulele, and then I also incorporate percussion, so I played timpani.
Willie Thompson:
Okay, timpani?
Catharine Bowman:
I know.
Willie Thompson:
Timpani is such-
Catharine Bowman:
Such a fun instrument.
Willie Thompson:
But it's really hard. I feel like...
Max Du:
So hardcore.
Willie Thompson:
It's really hard to play. So, I feel like all the instruments you noted before make you perfect at playing timpani, because when I tell you... Quick story time about timpani playing.
Catharine Bowman:
Please, yeah.
Willie Thompson:
Because I auditioned for all-state in high school. So an all-state band is basically... Maybe it's like the science fair thing-
Catharine Bowman:
The science fair, yeah.
Willie Thompson:
... that you talked about but for music, right?
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah.
Willie Thompson:
And so, you had to sight-read and then you had to do a bunch of different things for snare, for marimba, xylophone, and for timpani. Snare, I was pretty fine, I could do stuff with. Marimba, I was pretty fine, because you had to do all your scales, two octaves up and down with arpeggios and everything. And then you had to sight reading stuff, but I could get through it. It was timpani. Timpani is really hard and when you do the auditions, you're in a quiet room with people who are giving you the sheet music, so super quiet. And so, you have the tuning wheel and then you're trying to find... like you... and then you're like... I'm literally trying to hit the timpani, trying to tune it. I'm like-
Catharine Bowman:
Listening a little bit and hoping nobody notices.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, hopefully nobody notices. Honestly, when I auditioned, I had no idea if I was actually in tune or not, because I don't have great aural skills, but it's a hilarious experience. So, it's crazy that you played timpani.
Catharine Bowman:
I'm so happy you can appreciate that one, because usually people are like, "Oh, that's a cool, fun instrument-"
Willie Thompson:
That's hard.
Catharine Bowman:
"... you just kind of smack the two things." I'm like-
Willie Thompson:
No, it's really hard.
Catharine Bowman:
There are notes, yeah.
Willie Thompson:
There are hard notes and it seems like-
Catharine Bowman:
You've got to tune your drums.
Willie Thompson:
Sometimes you have to change the notes in the middle of a song. You got to be able to tune it while the song's going on. It's tough.
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, so I'd like to improve my timpani. Instruments nine, 10, et cetera might be like cello, I would love to learn. One of our friends, David in Knight-Hennessy plays cello, recently got to hold his cello. That was very scary, so cello, violin would be cool, so strings. Oh, the organ.
Willie Thompson:
Ah, okay. Okay, like a church organ.
Catharine Bowman:
Church organ-
Willie Thompson:
Got you.
Catharine Bowman:
Or just big Wurlitzer organs, you've got foot pedals, you got multiple layers of keys, and then you have the stops. And then the beautiful thing about the organ is you also have to let it breathe, the pipes. You have to also with your feet simultaneously let your instrument breathe, brilliant.
Willie Thompson:
Actually, you know what? We should do this. The end of the episode should be your cover of I and Love and You by one of my favorite... It's like I have a country like plays or whatever by The Avett Brothers, because when I saw the EP and saw the acoustic-
Catharine Bowman:
You found that?
Willie Thompson:
I did, man, load the car, write the note-
Catharine Bowman:
You found it.
Willie Thompson:
Grab your bag?
Catharine Bowman:
Grab your coat.
Willie Thompson:
Grab your coat? I was like, "What?" Anyway, we're going to end the episode on you singing that, because I was like, this can't be Catharine. It can't be, but it was.
Catharine Bowman:
It was indeed.
Willie Thompson:
It's crazy.
Catharine Bowman:
My gosh.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, we take our research seriously here in Imagine A World.
Catharine Bowman:
I'm impressed. Yeah, that's in the depths of the internet.
Willie Thompson:
It's on SoundCloud. I'm sorry, we'll link it in the show notes.
Catharine Bowman:
Oh my.
Willie Thompson:
It's good. It's really good.
Catharine Bowman:
I appreciate it.
Max Du:
It's something to be proud of.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah-
Catharine Bowman:
It's the early stuff. There's the 12 songs in med school have not been-
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, there's somewhere.
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, and that might've been a different improbable fact, but in med school, the first 12 weeks I took 20 minutes on a Friday night, basically wrote instrumental music and whatever was by the end of that 20 minutes is what was established, and I have been sitting on that for-
Willie Thompson:
Got to release it.
Catharine Bowman:
... three or four years now. Four years?
Willie Thompson:
Got to release it.
Catharine Bowman:
And I will, maybe for this episode. This will be the thing that kind of gives me the extra kick in the pants.
Willie Thompson:
I'm not going to lie, one of my goals before you graduate is to play with Catharine, like I just want to play with Catharine. I'm also a percussionist.
Catharine Bowman:
Deal.
Willie Thompson:
Yeah, that's become, if there's nothing else I do before I graduate from Stanford, I must play with Catharine as an artist.
Catharine Bowman:
I'm all for this.
Willie Thompson:
Okay, great. We need to make it happen.
Max Du:
I want to hear it.
Willie Thompson:
Okay, great.
Catharine Bowman:
On this podcast. No, I'm kidding.
Max Du:
Drums are coming out.
Willie Thompson:
We did record a song with Thay Graciano live-
Catharine Bowman:
Oh cool.
Willie Thompson:
... but that was cool. But that was Taylor and me though, he could play guitar. Well, I know we're coming up on time here, Catharine, I want to thank you so much for just sharing so much of your wisdom, your experience-
Catharine Bowman:
Thank you.
Willie Thompson:
... your hopes and dreams for the world. And before we actually end the episode, I want to end it on a personal note. People might know this, but you have day one at Knight-Hennessy, which is your first day on campus with your cohort. You do it in Denning, you do a bunch of fun stuff. And I remember maybe the week before day one, I was in a session at the business school and I was talking to some classmates about what we wanted to do with our lives and careers, because it was a career development session.
And I remember someone said they wanted to go to growth equity, which I didn't know what that meant at the time. Now I do, but someone said they want to go to climate tech. I was like, "Cool, I kind of get that." And I remember saying how I believe that businesses cause a lot of undue suffering in the world and how I wanted to think about the ways in which companies can mitigate needless suffering. And I remember their eyes were glazing over and I was losing them rapidly as I was going down this articulation of... Maybe it was a premature Imagine A World statement basically.
I want to be a CHR one day and like, "Oh yeah, yeah, that makes sense." You and I were having lunch, I forgot who else was there, but I was going through a similar exercise with you, and you immediately understood what I was trying to articulate in a way that I hadn't felt in my community. Outside of my family, like my mom, my wife, my family who know me really understood that, but without even having much of a precursor of who we are and everything, you immediately was like, "Oh yeah, I understand that, because I did a lot of work with transit community and whatever." And I just remember there was a way in which you could connect to what I was experiencing and what I felt was really important to me-
Catharine Bowman:
Incredible.
Willie Thompson:
... that I didn't experience at that time at the business school. And it was truly a hallmark moment for me of like, "I'm really glad I'm in Knight-Hennessy. I'm really glad I'm in this community and this space," because I worry where that would've taken me if I wasn't in a place like this. So I just want to say to you, thank you for... It might seem small in that moment, but it was something that meant a lot to me and helped give me a lot of confidence in the fact that... It wasn't about me belonging here and more about the things that I care about being valued here, so I just want to say that.
Catharine Bowman:
Thanks so much for saying that. I think it's also so personally very meaningful to hear that because in many ways our conversations have felt like that grounding point where maybe others may not understand quite the exact same thing I'm trying to articulate, but you always have. And then also I think doubly that emphasizes the extraordinary ordinary moment so beautifully. So, thank you for saying that. And thank you both for having me on for this awesome conversation.
Max Du:
This has been an awesome hour. Thank you so much.
Catharine Bowman:
Yeah, thank you.
Sydney Hunt:
Thank you for joining us for this episode of Imagine A World, where we hear from inspiring members of the KHS community who are making significant contributions in their respective fields, challenging the status quo, and pushing the boundaries of what is possible as they imagine the world they want to see.
Willie Thompson:
This podcast is sponsored by Knight-Hennessy Scholars at Stanford University, a multidisciplinary, multicultural graduate fellowship program providing scholars with financial support to pursue graduate studies at Stanford, while helping equip them to be visionary, courageous, and collaborative leaders who address complex challenges facing the world. Follow us on social media at Knight-Hennessy and visit our website at kh.stanford.edu to learn more about the program and our community.
