Traveling Turkey with Ayça Alemdaroğlu

Recorded in a hotel lobby in Çanakkale, Turkey, join co-host Willie Thompson in this episode of Imagine A World as he talks to Dr. Ayça Alemdaroğlu, Stanford's Associate Director of the Program on Turkey, about their shared experience on the recent KHS Global Travel Study trip, exploring questions like “How are national identities created?” and “How do people voice dissent?”

Dr. Alemdaroğlu discusses the world she imagines as someone who grew up in Turkey following the military coup of 1980. She now studies the social and political inequalities in Turkey as a political sociologist. This is the first episode in a two-part series from a recent KHS Global Travel Studies trip to Turkey.

Resources

• How Imagine A World began

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Guest

Ayça Alemdaroğlu is the Associate Director of the Program on Turkey and a Research Scholar at the Center on Democracy, Development, and the Rule of Law at Stanford University. She is also a Global Fellow at the Peace Research Institute Oslo (PRIO). As a political sociologist, Ayça explores social and political inequalities and changes in Turkey and the Middle East.

Previously, she was an Assistant Professor of Sociology and the Associate Director of the Keyman Modern Turkish Studies Program at Northwestern University. 

She received her Ph.D. in sociology from the University of Cambridge, her MA in political science from Bilkent University, and her BSc. degrees in political science and sociology from the Middle East Technical University. 

She serves on the editorial committee of the Middle East Report. 

Hosts

Sydney Hunt (2023 cohort), from Cornwall, New York, is pursuing a PhD in electrical engineering with a focus on brain-computer interfaces (BCI) at Stanford School of Engineering. She graduated from Duke University with bachelor’s degrees in electrical/computer engineering and computer science (concentration in artificial intelligence and machine learning), and a minor in gender, sexuality, and feminist studies. 

Willie Thompson (2022 cohort), from Griffin, Georgia, is pursuing a master's degree in business administration at Stanford Graduate School of Business and a master's degree in policy, organization, and leadership studies at Stanford Graduate School of Education. He graduated summa cum laude from Morehouse College with a bachelor’s degree in economics and a minor in Chinese Studies. Willie intends to create and contribute to organizations using the arts as a conduit for community building and intercultural education.

Imagine A World's theme music was composed and recorded by Taylor Goss. The podcast was originally conceived and led by Briana Mullen (2020 cohort), Taylor Goss (2021 cohort), and Willie Thompson, along with Daniel Gajardo (2020 cohort) and Jordan Conger (2020 cohort).

Special thanks to Rachel Desch (2023 cohort), Tanajia Moye-Green (2024 cohort), Philip Onffroy (2023 cohort), Ryan Wang (2024 cohort), and Elle Rae Tumpalan, KHS marketing and events assistant.

Knight-Hennessy scholars represent a vast array of cultures, perspectives, and experiences. While we as an organization are committed to elevating their voices, the views expressed are those of the scholars, and not necessarily those of KHS.

Full transcript

Note: Transcripts are generated by machine and lightly edited by humans. They may contain errors.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

Hi, I'm Ayça Alemdaroğlu. I'm the Associate Director of the program on Turkey and a research scholar at the Center on Democracy, Development and the Rule of Law at Stanford University.

Sydney Hunt:

Welcome to the Imagine A World podcast from Knight-Hennessy Scholars. We are here to give you a glimpse into the Knight-Hennessy Scholar community of graduate students, spanning all seven Stanford schools, including business, education, engineering, humanities, law, medicine, and sustainability. In each episode, we talk with scholars about the world they imagine and what they are doing to bring it to life.

Willie Thompson:

Today you'll be hearing from Ayça Alemdaroğlu, Associate Director of the program on Turkey and research scholar at the Center on Democracy, Development and the Rule of Law at Stanford University. During our conversation, you'll hear about the Knight-Hennessy Global study trip, Ayça's background in political sociology, what she hopes scholars will learn from our global study trip in Turkey, and so much more.

Hey, what's up you all? Welcome to another episode of the Imagine A World podcast. I am your host, Willie Thompson, and we're doing a little something different today with this episode. As you heard in the intro, it's not a Knight-Hennessy Scholar, but it's a scholar nonetheless who's joining us on this episode. And that is our very own Dr. Ayça. We're going to talk a lot about why we're doing this episode a little bit differently, but before I get into that, I want to ask, how are you doing? How's life?

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

Good. Good. Yeah, we're having fun.

Willie Thompson:

Yeah, we are having fun. For those of y'all who might be unaware, we are recording this episode right now in Turkey actually. So Dr. Ayça is someone who has been joining us on a ten-day trip I think in total, to Turkey, and is part of the global study trip here at Knight-Hennessy Scholars. And in terms of context, this is a trip where every Knight-Hennessy scholar gets one opportunity over the years of their funding to go on a trip to somewhere in the world. And so we get to study and learn from scholars, like Dr. Ayça, as well as see places that have either piqued our imaginations or we haven't had a chance to explore.

And so in the past, Knight-Hennessy's done trips to Alaska, also done trips to Chile and South Africa to name a few, and I got a chance to do the trip with Turkey. And so we thought, why not give you all a chance to see what it's like to be on one of these trips? All that being said, before we even get to the trip, which has been amazing by the way, I just want to thank you for showing up and quizzing us to make sure we're knowledgeable people about the country we're exploring.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

Yeah. Yeah. Before I take you here, right?

Willie Thompson:

Right. Exactly. Yeah. But before we get into that, I actually want to know more about you and your story. So I remember the first time we were introduced to you in our pre-orientation session, you were introduced to us as a political sociologist, which I thought was really cool. And you gave a little bit of context around how you got to Stanford, but that's something we do with all of our guests, and I'd love to do with you too, is to understand the world you were born into and experience. And so I want to understand from you, how did you get to Stanford? How did you start studying political sociology? You mentioned being born and raised for the most part in Turkey. And so I'd love to just get a little bit of your backstory before we even talk about the trip we're on.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

Sure. It's a long story, but I was born in Ankara and I grew up there and until I was 25, I lived there. I was doing my PhD, so I studied political science at the Middle East Technical University, as well as sociology. And then I did my master's in Bilkent University, neighboring university in Ankara, in political science. And then I was basically, I continued my PhD there, but then I got this really nice fellowship from the Turkish government to go abroad. And at that time, I was studying this subject about nationalism and human body and eugenics, those kinds of issues.

So I went to study with a sociologist at Cambridge during my PhD in Turkey. But then I really like being in Cambridge and I was like, "Oh, maybe I should do my PhD here." So I started a new PhD there, not political science, but sociology this time. I did that for a while, and part of that fellowship was for me to come back to Turkey and be a professor exactly at the college that I graduated from, Middle East Technical University. We call it the MIT of the Middle East. But then developed in the way that I wasn't expecting. I met this young American scientist at Cambridge whom I fell in love with, and then he want to move back to the US, and basically following him all the way to the West Coast. That's how I got to Stanford.

Willie Thompson:

And I know you were initially at Stanford, and then you lived in Evanston at Northwestern, and then you came back to Stanford too?

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

Yes, I was still doing my PhD when we moved to Palo Alto, and then when I finished it, I did a year of postdoc in the Anthropology Department, and then three years in the Thinking Matters program. It was called then Thinking Matters, I think it's now, it's just an introductory studies basically teaching the freshmen, or frosh. And then I was looking at all the options and jobs around the country, and I got this really nice job at Northwestern as an Assistant Professor of research, sociology, in the sociology department. And then also a chance to direct the program on Turkey there at Northwestern. And they have a nice program in the Global Studies Institute. Yeah, I did that for five years. And then it was very difficult. It wasn't that difficult, but there was a point where I was like, it was hard to continue flying back and forth between Palo Alto and Chicago, San Francisco and Chicago. So just two months before the pandemic started in March 2020, I moved to Palo Alto, taking this job as the Associate Director of Program on Turkey as well as a research scholar.

Willie Thompson:

Got it. The timing seemed to have worked out quite well.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

Yeah, yeah, the timing was... I was lucky. Yeah, I could do the move just before.

Willie Thompson:

Something I want to ask, more about your interest in political science and sociology and how you got started there. What was it about political science? What were you experiencing that led you down the path towards academia? We talk a lot with my fellow scholars who are in PhD programs and how you don't flirt with a PhD, that's a commitment. And so what were you experiencing and seeing and wanting to observe that led you to pursue that field?

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

I grew up in Turkey during the 1980s, and that had a meaning, which was just right after the 1980 coup, military coup. There was a restructuring of the education and it was very... The education I got was very good. I went to a private school thanks to my parents, but it was very dry in terms of how we studied history, how we studied geography and all that. I wasn't necessarily a very good student. I was okay. So I took the national university exam, and then I get a chance to go to the Middle East Technical University.

Willie Thompson:

That's for undergrad, right?

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

Yeah, that's for my undergrad. And I just loved it. I just loved everything. I just loved the history of politics. I loved political theory, I loved sociology, critical thinking. I felt like I was reborn with the mind, critical mind. Most of my friends actually went to work in banks, auditing firms, or bureaucracy. I just didn't want to stop research and reading. So that's how I became an academic and how I'm still working in the university.

Willie Thompson:

Right. Yeah, that's really cool story, and it's interesting to hear you talk about your experience in the context of what Turkey was going through and how your experience in a more, it sounds like more rigid of education system, and how you are able to break out into more a free form I guess, form of thinking, and it's really cool. Before we get to the trip, because I think we were talking about this. I feel like the days blend together when you are on these multiple day, double-digit hour trips, but we were talking over lunch about some of the research you're planning on doing here. We're kind of doing this episode while we're not in Instanbul, while we're in Çanakkale for a couple of days. And you're mentioning you're just so busy going back and forth, setting up research. So you've got a list, a publication list that's longer than the Bosphorus at this point. So instead of talking about all of your research you've done, I'd love if you could share a little bit about what you're trying to set up in research now in Turkey and what you're trying to see there.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

I have a couple of projects going, but let's start with the one that I think you're referring to is the... So Turkey had a really interesting cycle of elections in the last year. So in 2023, we had the general elections where the opposition lost by a couple of percentage points. And then in the local elections in less than a year after, they won big time. So this particular research that I think you are referring to is about understanding what happened in between, and how the opposition won in Turkey in taking over many municipalities from the governing party.

So we have a four people team. Actually we started as just me, but then we grow to become a four people team. And we're basically studying this question in six towns, or all around Turkey picked from different locations. And we're trying to understand what happened in these places because some of these places are never elected the Republican People's Party, the opposition party in their history. Some haven't elected the People's Party for 30, 40 years. So the question is what happened? But then the second part of research is about would they be able to hold onto these places? How are they doing? How are they governing in these municipalities? And can we predict that they will continue to win elections? Yeah, that's one of the research that I have to actively come back and do in the next year.

Willie Thompson:

Yeah, that was the one we were talking about. Because it was, even when I heard you talking about it, it reminded me of, and I believe I said this at lunch, it just reminded me of what we saw in the US around people who voted for President Obama in 2012 and voted for President Trump in 2016, and then who didn't vote. It's almost like flip-flopping between candidates or the false Red Wave that we thought we'd have in 2022. So I thought that was really interesting. I can't wait to see what the research says. Do you have any guesses or predictions, or are you just going to wait to see what the data says? Or the data say rather.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

There are two main ideas, or things that we're observing. One is that it's the weakening of the governing party, but then the opposition party did something different this time.

Willie Thompson:

Okay.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

So it's a combination of both factors. And I can go into detail about what they did different.

Willie Thompson:

That's my next question.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

But we have to see it in each of these towns how that played out.

Willie Thompson:

Got it.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

And if you are curious about what they did different, is I think they were more based their decisions to who they field and different localities, making actually sure that they have some understanding of what the public wants in those places,-

Willie Thompson:

Oh, interesting.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

... Doing some research. I think maybe traditionally the party function in a way that whoever had money in that particular locality or who have been in the party organization for many years, the party trust is those people.

Willie Thompson:

Oh, I see.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

But when you trust a certain cadre of people, they're not always very good at reading what's going on in the society, what the demands are. So they may move away from being representative of their constituencies. And I think this time, the party was more careful about who they field.

Willie Thompson:

Got it. Well, I'll be really excited to hear more about where that research shows up. Because I know these research projects have a pretty long tail, so it might take a couple years or something.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

So this one has two phases. One is that we're going to do next year, 2025, and then we'll release our report, but then the idea is to do a second phase of the research close to when these municipalities, mayors and terms end. So in two, three years, we'll do another phase to see if they're doing well.

Willie Thompson:

Got it. Well, cool. Well, thank you for giving that context. And before I talk about our trip specifically, we talked a lot about your research, talked a little bit about what got you into the field, into academia, being a researcher. One thing we do a lot on the podcast that we haven't done in this setting, but I want to maybe spend a little time talking through is the name of the podcast is Imagine A World, and a lot of times we talk to people about the world they imagine and how what they're doing influences the ideas and the ways in which they view futures. What will you hope and imagine will be different about the world as a result of the research and the work that you're doing?

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

It depends on the particular research project that I take on. Some research projects I really target Turkey and the sort of ways of thinking about things in Turkey. And I try to maybe question that and bring in new evidence to challenge it, to show people that that sort of common narrative that they use or the dominant narrative that we sort resort to may not reveal the truth or may not be about the truth. The reality may be a little bit more complex than how they see it. If you're thinking about this other project about the elections and why opposition won, then obviously I want a more democratic Turkey. And I feel like if we understand how different parties or how different voices can excel in the society in one way or another, that will help democratization. So I want to make sure that we understand so we can repeat that success. So yeah, it depends on the project. But generally, the questions that I study are inequality, authoritarianism. I have a new cool project about the Cold War Turkey, which I don't want to talk too much now.

Willie Thompson:

Okay. This is going to be a good exercise in me practicing active listening. So what I heard is you imagine a world where there is, I'm going to name a couple of things, there's a more democratic Turkey, a world where there are multiple narratives that allow for complexity, and a world where we have a better understanding of how our parties, wherever you are, Turkey, US, can best serve the interest of the people.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

Yeah, yeah. More plurality can happen, especially in the authoritarian context. It's a good experiment too when the opposition finally wins an election, and then you want to make sure you understand it, what happened really, so that you could do it again. Obviously, your ability to win elections is not just dependent on you. Even you do some right things sometimes, elections play out in different ways. But yeah.

Willie Thompson:

I love that vision. Having now visited one country and lived in another where authoritarianism is been the name of the game, or can be perceived to be the name of the game, it is cool to sort of think about what that world could look like, so I appreciate you for sharing with us. Now, we're going to do a little bit of a pivot here. I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast that we have these global study trips. They're amazing and eye-opening and edifying. And you're also not a stranger to these global study trips. You did another one, what was that was, was it two years ago?

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

Mm-hmm.

Willie Thompson:

You did one two years ago. That was our group's first trip. Not me, by the way. I was not on that trip, because you can only go on one trip. But you've been on this trip twice now, and I'm wondering for you, having done it again, what have you been reflecting on and thinking about during our trip so far?

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

So I really liked the design of these trips, which I contributed. I designed the first trip, part of the first trip. So these trips are partially visiting historical sites in Turkey, specifically Istanbul in the first trip, from the Byzantine to the Ottoman palaces to contemporary modern arts, especially in the first trip, the last bit. There's that kind of more learning about the history of Turkey through visiting these landmark places in Istanbul.

And then the second part of the trip is going and talking to various civil society organizations or corporations where students, scholars, learn about the struggles in Turkey, how people organize, how people voice their dissent, how the media works, how can they organize to recreate a context of independent media, all those things. So the two parts of the trip, the way we designed it, and I designed the second part, I really like it. And this year, I think the second trip shows me that that's still a good idea. So I like that about these study trips.

This time, we added another component to the trip, which is this two day in Çanakkale, sort of where we visited the first World War war sites, talking about how national identities are created, Turkey's sort of decline of the empire and its dissolution, but as well as we talked about the Australian national identity, New Zealand nationality, how it's tied to this locality here. We also visited Doric and Ionian Temple. And we have seen, of course, the Troy, the city of Troy, and this beautiful museum. So this trip had this add-on where we visited another location and came down to Aegean.

I think this worked very well too, with this add-on visit to Çanakkale and seeing all these incredible places. I think the first trip I was trying to understand who are Knight-Hennessy Scholars, why are these people, our Knight-Hennessy Scholars, what are common about them, right? In my first trip, it was like only eight people, eight scholars, and we had a... For seven days, I get to know them quite a bit. And I thought their openness and their curiosity and their trying effort to understand things was really remarkable to me. And I see this on this trip too, which is really rewarding as a faculty leader to the trip that you're talking to people who have these qualities. So yeah, those have been my thoughts about this trip.

Willie Thompson:

For sure. And I would definitely say being able to go... Or sorry, we're here now, but being able to come to Çanakkale has been really great. And Çanakkale has included a bunch of stuff that I didn't think I would see. I didn't think I would see 20 charter buses loaded on a ferry and we'd sail across some water to get to Troy or even to swim in the Aegean, which wasn't on my bucket list, but I'm glad we got a chance to do it as a group.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

And you had a nice jump in the water.

Willie Thompson:

I did have a nice jump. I did have a nice jump. Pierce got a good video of me. I think you and Kathy might be the strongest swimmers of the group. So that was another new insight there. And we also, I know we have one more organization to visit, Hafiza Merkezi, which I am really excited to get a chance to speak with them. And for folks who are unfamiliar, they basically work a lot with understanding and reckoning with past violations of human rights, and how do you build a more robust collective memory and reckoning around those things, which I just think is remarkable.

We're coming up on time here. There's so many things I could talk to you about and ask you about, but I'll remain steadfast to the time we have. And I want to get your take on this final question. And you said you already noted some of the qualities and traits. I can probably hear Tina Seelig smiling, and John probably, around the traits you were noticing, because that's a real big part of our leadership model here at Knight-Hennessy. And now that we're ending this on the back end of this trip, what are you hoping that we will get out of trips like these, and the things that we'll take with us, and that will stay in our collective memory, in our hearts, as we go on to lead lives of consequence?

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

I can't generalize. I don't know the other trips, but for Turkey trip specifically, I guess maybe three things. One is expanding your horizons in terms of the food you eat, in terms of the crowds that you can feel comfortable in, in terms of the sounds, the visuals, the history, how people interact with each other, how the cities are organized, everything you see, you hear, we talked about in this trip. So really expanding that, adding it to what you already know, and maybe making connections.

The second is, I guess Turkey is a very complex place, very long history, really complex society, very, at times, difficult political times, and we've talked about those. So just understanding how things can be complex and difficult to pinpoint. So really appreciating this country's long history and difficult history at times, but also struggles of people in this country now. I think Turkey is a very, very interesting place. I've lived here, I was born, I lived, I study here, but it still surprises me, and I hope I was able to share some of that enthusiasm and amazement and interest in Turkey. And then I guess the last is although different countries like the US and Turkey, although we are allies, with an asterisk, perhaps seeing the common things that we are experiencing in terms of perhaps the democratic decline, or obviously there are different levels to it in these countries, but there's a lot to be learned from the Turkish experience in terms of how regression happens and what you could end up with. So there's this, I guess, a comparative relevance of Turkey, which I will also like scholars to get out of our trip.

Willie Thompson:

Yeah. Well, I'll definitely say we've, I'm speaking on behalf of all the scholars, but the audience will get a chance to hear from some of the scholars in our next episode about this trip and what they're experiencing, and we'll be able to map what you've hoped and what they're pulling away from it as well. But I'll say, at least from my perspective, all three of those things have come through in the trip, from landing here, to visiting our first organization with the Migrant Solidarity Association, to seeing our first historical sites, the Blue Mosque.

Yeah, it's just been a lot of opportunities for us to reflect and think about those things deeply. And yeah, we probably won't remember every fact that our amazing tour guide Ali has given us over the past week, but I definitely believe it's softened our hearts and understandings to a place that is of vital importance to the world, for its culture, its history, among a plethora of other things. So I just want to thank you for spending time with us both as a collective and for taking time to sit in the lobby of our hotel in Çanakkale to even share more for folks who might be interested in joining this program or who are already members of this community. So I just want to say thank you for that, and I appreciate it.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

Thank you. Thank you for having me, and it's a pleasure to travel with you and your colleagues.

Willie Thompson:

Yeah, for sure. All right guys, next episode you'll be hearing from some of my fellow travel mates. We will talk a little bit about what we've been seeing, what we've been thinking about, and we'll see you over there. So thanks again, Dr. Ayça. Excited to spend the last day and some change with you and the rest of the crew.

Ayça Alemdaroğlu:

Yeah, me too. Me too. I'm really excited for the last two days of our trip, and I'll be sad to see you go.

Sydney Hunt:

Thank you for joining us for this episode of Imagine A World, where we hear from inspiring members of the KHS community who are making significant contributions in their respective fields, challenging the status quo, and pushing the boundaries of what is possible as they imagine the world they want to see.

Willie Thompson:

This podcast is sponsored by Knight-Hennessy Scholars at Stanford University, a multidisciplinary, multicultural graduate fellowship program providing scholars with financial support to pursue graduate studies at Stanford, while helping equip them to be visionary, courageous, and collaborative leaders who address complex challenges facing the world. Follow us on social media at KnightHennessey, and visit our website at kh.stanford.edu to learn more about the program and our community.